Pascal's Wager: What Have I Lost?

[Tassman]

Jesus taught killing the body does not kill the soul. But both the body and soul will be ruined, perish, be destroyed in Hell (Matthew 10:28). Hell being identified as the second death (Revelation 20:11-15; Revelation 21:8). And that the dead bodies will gnash their teeth (Matthew 25:30) and the dead souls with their bodies be in torment forever(Revelation 14:10-11; comp Revelation 20:10).

What makes you think immaterial "souls" exist?

[37818]

What makes you think immaterial "souls" exist?

What makes you think you are self aware? What does that consist of?

[Tassman]

What makes you think you are self aware? What does that consist of?

Numerous creatures are self aware. E.g. Humans, Orangutans, Chimpanzees, Gorillas, Dolphins, Elephants, Bonobos and Orcas. Are you suggesting that "self awareness" is the key indicator of immaterial souls? Why would you think this? Will the 'faithful' be sharing heaven with all these delightful animals?

[Roy]

1. Yes, hell is worse than nothing.
2. It is not "Follow me without any reason to do so or I will torture you for eternity" - it is "you have sinned and done wrong and without accepting my forgiveness through Jesus you will be eternally separated from me" Basically at judgment day, you will be judged for your sins, not for "not believing"

We are all guilty of sin and rebelling against God. for that we deserve hell, which is separation from God. Jesus sacrificed himself to pay for our sins. Accepting him as your Lord and Savior means basically choosing sides and accepting God's mercy. Not believing means choosing sides and deciding you will just face Judgment by yourself and pay for your sins yourself. So believers get a "pardon" and nonbelievers have to serve out the sentence they deserve.

Since the sentence passed is dependent on whether one is a believer or not, and nothing else - which is the case if everyone is guilty but only non-believers are punished - then you are being judged based on your beliefs, and it really is "follow me without any reason to do so or I'll torture you for eternity".

If you think otherwise you are deluding yourself. Though given the horrendous scheme you are supporting, it's understandable.

[37818]

Numerous creatures are self aware. E.g. Humans, Orangutans, Chimpanzees, Gorillas, Dolphins, Elephants, Bonobos and Orcas. Are you suggesting that "self awareness" is the key indicator of immaterial souls? Why would you think this? Will the 'faithful' be sharing heaven with all these delightful animals?

How many of them have language and write and design and build as we humans do? In that regard we have no known rivals.

[Tassman]

How many of them have language and write and design and build as we humans do? In that regard we have no known rivals.

We have no real rivals because we are the most intelligent, but we're not unique and many animals are self-aware, can communicate via simple language and design and make tools for specific purposes. E.g. Chimpanzees, our nearest relatives learned how to make and use tools long ago without human help, with stone hammers found at a chimp settlement in the Ivory Coast dating back 4,300 years. They are even capable of making spears to hunt other primates for meat, and are known to have developed specialised tool kits for foraging army ants. Cited Live Science

[37818]

We have no real rivals because we are the most intelligent, but we're not unique and many animals are self-aware, can communicate via simple language and design and make tools for specific purposes. E.g. Chimpanzees, our nearest relatives learned how to make and use tools long ago without human help, with stone hammers found at a chimp settlement in the Ivory Coast dating back 4,300 years. They are even capable of making spears to hunt other primates for meat, and are known to have developed specialised tool kits for foraging army ants. Cited Live Science

I never said animals do not have souls. I said a soul is being self aware. And as humans we do not have any intelligent animal rivals. Not even close which makes humans unique. And as I also argued ability does not and cannot come from inability.

[Sparko]

Since the sentence passed is dependent on whether one is a believer or not, and nothing else - which is the case if everyone is guilty but only non-believers are punished - then you are being judged based on your beliefs, and it really is "follow me without any reason to do so or I'll torture you for eternity".

If you think otherwise you are deluding yourself. Though given the horrendous scheme you are supporting, it's understandable.

so if you were a murderer among a bunch of other murderers on death row and you were offered a pardon and took it, would the other murderers be put to death for not accepting? or were they put to death because they were murderers and deserved death? The only one not treated "fairly" would be you for getting and accepting mercy despite deserving to die.

[Tassman]

I never said animals do not have souls. I said a soul is being self aware.

And as humans we do not have any intelligent animal rivals. Not even close which makes humans unique.

Humans are not unique, merely the most intelligent of the primates with many of the same skills.

And as I also argued ability does not and cannot come from inability.

But it demonstrably does. All our abilities in the final analysis are learnt behaviours.

[Roy]

so if you were a murderer among a bunch of other murderers on death row and you were offered a pardon and took it, would the other murderers be put to death for not accepting? or were they put to death because they were murderers and deserved death? The only one not treated "fairly" would be you for getting and accepting mercy despite deserving to die.

You seem to have forgotten the 'belief' criterion. If you take a bunch of murderers and you pardon the Christians while executing the non-Christians then you are judging those murderers based on their beliefs.

[37818]

The soul is nevertheless immaterial entity. The question becomes is it only the neurological function or something more. As a materialist you have to assume that it is merely neurological function of the physical brain and cannot be anything more.

Humans are not unique, merely the most intelligent of the primates with many of the same skills.

Then not anything is unique, is that what you mean? What would be unique? Wouldn't the DNA in mankind which causes mankind to be the most intelligent primate? Again, ability does not come from nothing.

But it demonstrably does. All our abilities in the final analysis are learnt behaviours.

Learning is an ability too. The ability to learn. Again, ability does not come from inability.

[Sparko]

You seem to have forgotten the 'belief' criterion. If you take a bunch of murderers and you pardon the Christians while executing the non-Christians then you are judging those murderers based on their beliefs.

er what? I never said that. I was making an analogy.

You have a group of prisoners on death row. They are all guilty of murder. The Governor says, "Anyone who will follow me and my commands will get a pardon, all you have to do is ask" - so you, a prisoner (not a christian) say "wow that is a great offer! I will accept!" and you get pardoned. Me, a skeptic, say "no, it has to be some sort of trick. I don't believe the governor" so I stay on death row and am killed. I was not killed for not believing the governor, I was killed for the murders I committed. What I got, I deserved. You on the other hand got mercy which you did not deserve. The only one not treated fairly was you. I and the other inmates who died, got what we deserved for our actions.

[Roy]

You seem to have forgotten the 'belief' criterion. If you take a bunch of murderers and you pardon the Christians while executing the non-Christians then you are judging those murderers based on their beliefs.

er what? I never said that. I was making an analogy.

You have a group of prisoners on death row. They are all guilty of murder. The Governor says, "Anyone who will follow me and my commands will get a pardon, all you have to do is ask" - so you, a prisoner (not a christian) say "wow that is a great offer! I will accept!" and you get pardoned. Me, a skeptic, say "no, it has to be some sort of trick. I don't believe the governor" so I stay on death row and am killed. I was not killed for not believing the governor, I was killed for the murders I committed. What I got, I deserved. You on the other hand got mercy which you did not deserve. The only one not treated fairly was you. I and the other inmates who died, got what we deserved for our actions.

I know you were making an analogy. It doesn't help you.

If you take a bunch of prisoners and you release the ones who accept the pardon and execute the ones who don't, you are judging the prisoners on whether they accept the pardon, and not on anything else they may have done. Don't forget for your analogy to apply, everyone must be a prisoner - there is no-one who is not on death row. You can't make judgements where there are no differences.

Under your stated view, the only criterion for whether some-one goes to heaven or hell is whether they are a Christian. Nothing else matters. The most generous, helpful, gentle and charitable person imaginable would, if they rejected Christianity for any reason, be damned, while a raping murdering violent thug would be saved by a deathbed conversion to Christianity. Your view of god is literally "If you don't follow me, I'll torture you for eternity".

[Sparko]

I know you were making an analogy. It doesn't help you.

If you take a bunch of prisoners and you release the ones who accept the pardon and execute the ones who don't, you are judging the prisoners on whether they accept the pardon, and not on anything else they may have done. Don't forget for your analogy to apply, everyone must be a prisoner - there is no-one who is not on death row. You can't make judgements where there are no differences.

They are prisoners already condemned because they murdered people. They are being killed because they are murderers. The pardon is an escape from their just punishment. It is not a judgment. It doesn't magically turn the reason for their death from being a murderer to being too stupid to accept the pardon. The executioner didn't say "you are being killed because you refused the pardon!" he says, "you are being killed because you have murdered"

[Tassman]

The soul is nevertheless immaterial entity. The question becomes is it only the neurological function or something more. As a materialist you have to assume that it is merely neurological function of the physical brain and cannot be anything more.

Then not anything is unique, is that what you mean? What would be unique? Wouldn't the DNA in mankind which causes mankind to be the most intelligent primate? Again, ability does not come from nothing.

Humans are intelligent primates, what more can be said?

Learning is an ability too. The ability to learn. Again, ability does not come from inability.

It does. Our abilities evolved over millions of years from microorganisms via natural selection