Originally posted by 37818
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Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Pascal's Wager: What Have I Lost?
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostWhat makes you think immaterial "souls" exist?. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostWhat makes you think you are self aware? What does that consist of?
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Originally posted by Sparko View Post1. Yes, hell is worse than nothing.
2. It is not "Follow me without any reason to do so or I will torture you for eternity" - it is "you have sinned and done wrong and without accepting my forgiveness through Jesus you will be eternally separated from me" Basically at judgment day, you will be judged for your sins, not for "not believing"
We are all guilty of sin and rebelling against God. for that we deserve hell, which is separation from God. Jesus sacrificed himself to pay for our sins. Accepting him as your Lord and Savior means basically choosing sides and accepting God's mercy. Not believing means choosing sides and deciding you will just face Judgment by yourself and pay for your sins yourself. So believers get a "pardon" and nonbelievers have to serve out the sentence they deserve.
If you think otherwise you are deluding yourself. Though given the horrendous scheme you are supporting, it's understandable.Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostNumerous creatures are self aware. E.g. Humans, Orangutans, Chimpanzees, Gorillas, Dolphins, Elephants, Bonobos and Orcas. Are you suggesting that "self awareness" is the key indicator of immaterial souls? Why would you think this? Will the 'faithful' be sharing heaven with all these delightful animals?. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostHow many of them have language and write and design and build as we humans do? In that regard we have no known rivals.
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostWe have no real rivals because we are the most intelligent, but we're not unique and many animals are self-aware, can communicate via simple language and design and make tools for specific purposes. E.g. Chimpanzees, our nearest relatives learned how to make and use tools long ago without human help, with stone hammers found at a chimp settlement in the Ivory Coast dating back 4,300 years. They are even capable of making spears to hunt other primates for meat, and are known to have developed specialised tool kits for foraging army ants. Cited Live Science. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by Roy View PostSince the sentence passed is dependent on whether one is a believer or not, and nothing else - which is the case if everyone is guilty but only non-believers are punished - then you are being judged based on your beliefs, and it really is "follow me without any reason to do so or I'll torture you for eternity".
If you think otherwise you are deluding yourself. Though given the horrendous scheme you are supporting, it's understandable.
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostI never said animals do not have souls. I said a soul is being self aware.And as humans we do not have any intelligent animal rivals. Not even close which makes humans unique.
And as I also argued ability does not and cannot come from inability.
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Originally posted by Sparko View Postso if you were a murderer among a bunch of other murderers on death row and you were offered a pardon and took it, would the other murderers be put to death for not accepting? or were they put to death because they were murderers and deserved death? The only one not treated "fairly" would be you for getting and accepting mercy despite deserving to die.Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
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The soul is nevertheless immaterial entity. The question becomes is it only the neurological function or something more. As a materialist you have to assume that it is merely neurological function of the physical brain and cannot be anything more.
Humans are not unique, merely the most intelligent of the primates with many of the same skills.
But it demonstrably does. All our abilities in the final analysis are learnt behaviours.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by Roy View PostYou seem to have forgotten the 'belief' criterion. If you take a bunch of murderers and you pardon the Christians while executing the non-Christians then you are judging those murderers based on their beliefs.
You have a group of prisoners on death row. They are all guilty of murder. The Governor says, "Anyone who will follow me and my commands will get a pardon, all you have to do is ask" - so you, a prisoner (not a christian) say "wow that is a great offer! I will accept!" and you get pardoned. Me, a skeptic, say "no, it has to be some sort of trick. I don't believe the governor" so I stay on death row and am killed. I was not killed for not believing the governor, I was killed for the murders I committed. What I got, I deserved. You on the other hand got mercy which you did not deserve. The only one not treated fairly was you. I and the other inmates who died, got what we deserved for our actions.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostYou seem to have forgotten the 'belief' criterion. If you take a bunch of murderers and you pardon the Christians while executing the non-Christians then you are judging those murderers based on their beliefs.
You have a group of prisoners on death row. They are all guilty of murder. The Governor says, "Anyone who will follow me and my commands will get a pardon, all you have to do is ask" - so you, a prisoner (not a christian) say "wow that is a great offer! I will accept!" and you get pardoned. Me, a skeptic, say "no, it has to be some sort of trick. I don't believe the governor" so I stay on death row and am killed. I was not killed for not believing the governor, I was killed for the murders I committed. What I got, I deserved. You on the other hand got mercy which you did not deserve. The only one not treated fairly was you. I and the other inmates who died, got what we deserved for our actions.
If you take a bunch of prisoners and you release the ones who accept the pardon and execute the ones who don't, you are judging the prisoners on whether they accept the pardon, and not on anything else they may have done. Don't forget for your analogy to apply, everyone must be a prisoner - there is no-one who is not on death row. You can't make judgements where there are no differences.
Under your stated view, the only criterion for whether some-one goes to heaven or hell is whether they are a Christian. Nothing else matters. The most generous, helpful, gentle and charitable person imaginable would, if they rejected Christianity for any reason, be damned, while a raping murdering violent thug would be saved by a deathbed conversion to Christianity. Your view of god is literally "If you don't follow me, I'll torture you for eternity".Last edited by Roy; 06-08-2017, 12:08 PM.Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
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Originally posted by Roy View PostI know you were making an analogy. It doesn't help you.
If you take a bunch of prisoners and you release the ones who accept the pardon and execute the ones who don't, you are judging the prisoners on whether they accept the pardon, and not on anything else they may have done. Don't forget for your analogy to apply, everyone must be a prisoner - there is no-one who is not on death row. You can't make judgements where there are no differences.
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostThe soul is nevertheless immaterial entity. The question becomes is it only the neurological function or something more. As a materialist you have to assume that it is merely neurological function of the physical brain and cannot be anything more.Then not anything is unique, is that what you mean? What would be unique? Wouldn't the DNA in mankind which causes mankind to be the most intelligent primate? Again, ability does not come from nothing.
Learning is an ability too. The ability to learn. Again, ability does not come from inability.
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