Reflections on Rational Thought

[tabibito]

How is it known that it has memories of it's caterpillar life? It's a warm idea though...this soulical caterpillar soup.

Apparently the butterfly knows where to find the places that the caterpillar had been. I don't know how the researchers made the actual observations, but I'll assume that they were honest.

[Alien]

Apparently the butterfly knows where to find the places that the caterpillar had been. I don't know how the researchers made the actual observations, but I'll assume that they were honest.

I have a vague memory of someone taking some kind of primitive worms, grinding them up and feeding them to other worms of the same species that then started behaving in ways that suggested that the behavior had been transferred from the original worms. I haven't seen anything about it since, so maybe the findings were debunked. Anyone know anything about that?

As far as your birds are concerned, you don't have anything like enough data, but it would be interesting to do some arithmetic to see if the observed behavior fits the idea of an inherited characteristic. Say, if of two original parents one was more likely to approach you, then you might expect half their offspring to exhibit it, then a quarter of their offspring and so on. (Too many assumptions in there, but if we could get much more general data ...?)

[Machinist]

I have a vague memory of someone taking some kind of primitive worms, grinding them up and feeding them to other worms of the same species that then started behaving in ways that suggested that the behavior had been transferred from the original worms.

I've heard of heart transplant recipients experiencing memories of the donor.

[tabibito]

I have a vague memory of someone taking some kind of primitive worms, grinding them up and feeding them to other worms of the same species that then started behaving in ways that suggested that the behavior had been transferred from the original worms. I haven't seen anything about it since, so maybe the findings were debunked. Anyone know anything about that?

As far as your birds are concerned, you don't have anything like enough data, but it would be interesting to do some arithmetic to see if the observed behavior fits the idea of an inherited characteristic. Say, if of two original parents one was more likely to approach you, then you might expect half their offspring to exhibit it, then a quarter of their offspring and so on. (Too many assumptions in there, but if we could get much more general data ...?)

Yes - way too small a sample group as a basis for a theory, but enough to develop a hypothesis worth pursuing - if I had that much interest in ornithology. Mudlark pairs stay in home territory and don't tolerate intrusion by other mudlarks (not even their own young a few weeks after they leave the nest at the earliest, or until the next nesting season at the latest) so they don't make ideal test subjects for succeeding generations.

The butterfly thingy proves to be a bust - apparently the brain stuctures (for some weird reason, called "mushroom bodies") aren't dissolved along with the body after all.

[Machinist]

The butterfly thingy proves to be a bust - apparently the brain stuctures (for some weird reason, called "mushroom bodies") aren't dissolved along with the body after all.

That's a bummer. The thought of butterflies remembering their caterpillar existence made me feel warm and fuzzy.

[tabibito]

That's a bummer. The thought of butterflies remembering their caterpillar existence made me feel warm and fuzzy.

They do remember - but (what serves as) the brain isn't dissolved with the body. It seems that later experiments found things that the early experiments missed. (not particularly unusual).

[Machinist]

They do remember - but (what serves as) the brain isn't dissolved with the body. It seems that later experiments found things that the early experiments missed. (not particularly unusual).

That dang brain! Why does it always have to be a brain?

[Alien]

That's a bummer. The thought of butterflies remembering their caterpillar existence made me feel warm and fuzzy.

One of my favorite cartoons from years gone by. Two caterpillars are sitting on a leaf watching a butterfly go by. One says to the other, "You'll never get me up in one of those things!"

[seer]

Interesting discussion:

Asking A Theoretical Physicist About The Physics Of Consciousness | Roger Penrose & Jordan Peterson

[Machinist]

Interesting discussion:

Asking A Theoretical Physicist About The Physics Of Consciousness | Roger Penrose & Jordan Peterson

That was a very complex conversation these two had. It looked like Penrose needed some Tylenol.

Consciousness is non-computational simply means non-deterministic, or non-mechanistic, right?

[seer]

That was a very complex conversation these two had. It looked like Penrose needed some Tylenol.

Consciousness is non-computational simply means non-deterministic, or non-mechanistic, right?

Yes I think that is what he was getting at - I have to watch it again. Non-mechanistic means not deterministic, which brings into question materialism.

[Machinist]

Yes I think that is what he was getting at - I have to watch it again. Non-mechanistic means not deterministic, which brings into question materialism.

A question here...just something to ponder... and you may wonder what my precise definitions are here because at face value it seems too simple of a question:

Is consciousness rational?

[seer]

A question here...just something to ponder... and you may wonder what my precise definitions are here because at face value it seems too simple of a question:

Is consciousness rational?

I would say that consciousness is the only avenue to rationality (i.e. to conceptual reasoning) - but I'm not sure if that is what you are asking...

[Machinist]

I would say that consciousness is the only avenue to rationality (i.e. to conceptual reasoning) - but I'm not sure if that is what you are asking...

If consciousness is non-computational, then is it non-rational?

[seer]

If consciousness is non-computational, then is it non-rational?

The non-computational thing, I think, was about it not being mechanical or deterministic, not about rationality in general. I'm going to watch it again today...