The Problem Of Evil?

[tabibito]

sure he does. He has the opportunity and the choice to change his course. He just chooses not to.
Let's say we have a film of a reality show where some person makes a dumb choice. Do you think he had no opportunity to make a different choice just because if you watch the tape again he will do exactly the same thing? No, he had the opportunity, he just chose badly. No matter how many times you watch the tape.

Your tape exists before the person ever gets to make a choice. God knows what those choices were to be - God created the conditions which resulted in those choices - God created that person to make those choices.

I never said that the course was predetermined. I am saying the opposite.

You are saying that the course was predetermined, foreordained. There is nothing in your concept that supports predestination.

[whag]

Yeah she likes some calvinist teachers but I don't think she even knows or cares if they are calvinist. There are much more topics in Christianity than free will. And there are different "levels" of Calvinism. I think at the reformed level they believe in it like this: God chooses who to save (election) - those who have not been elected are slaves to their sin nature and cannot choose God. They are going to hell. For the elect, God gives them a new spirit, which basically awakens them to allow them to choose God. The rest is pretty much all free will choices (well as free as someone can be if they are a slave to sin). On the far end, hyper calvinism, everything anyone does is all controlled by God, from what you eat for breakfast to your smallest thought. We are merely meat puppets.

And MacArthur supports his views with the Bible, the same book from which you’re basing your beliefs. That was my point.

[tabibito]

It’s a popular and influential theology and by no means irrelevant to this discussion. Minority status is irrelevant unless you’re saying the most popular belief is the truest.

That is not going to happen. Christianity is as popular to the churches as was Yahwism to the Jews.

[whag]

I can see how the concept arises, but I haven't drawn any conclusions.



The question might arise - based on "Eve was deceived, but Adam wasn't" - as to who it was that actually revolted.

Whether A&E or just Eve revolted doesn’t matter. Adherent still believe it is a QA/QC process to prevent the prior debacle from
occurring again.

I don’t write this silliness. I’m just reporting it. =)

[Sparko]

Your tape exists before the person ever gets to make a choice. God knows what those choices were to be - God created the conditions which resulted in those choices - God created that person to make those choices.




You are saying that the course was predetermined, foreordained. There is nothing in your concept that supports predestination.

There is no "before" or "after" - Our universe exists in it's own time.

In my previous example, what happens if after filming the reality show, you send the tape back in time before it happened and we watched it then. Would that suddenly cause the free will action we recorded to be not free? It would still happen.

[Sparko]

And MacArthur supports his views with the Bible, the same book from which you’re basing your beliefs. That was my point.

Different viewpoints. There is no specific teaching in the bible on arminianism vs calvinism. Both views are interpretations and possible explanations for what the bible describes.

[tabibito]

There is no "before" or "after" - Our universe exists in it's own time.

In my previous example, what happens if after filming the reality show, you send the tape back in time before it happened and we watched it then. Would that suddenly cause the free will action we recorded to be not free? It would still happen.

The critical difference is: God is not watching an image of the action, but the action itself. That means the actor has no more volition than the image on the tape.

[Sparko]

The critical difference is: God is not watching an image of the action, but the action itself. That means the actor has no more volition than the image on the tape.

Just answer the question. The action in both cases actually takes place at the time of the recording is made, no matter when you watch it. If you watch the tape a day later or time travel back before it happens and watch the tape, it is just showing you what happens at the time the action was recorded. In neither case does it take away free will does it?

[tabibito]

Just answer the question. The action in both cases actually takes place at the time of the recording is made, no matter when you watch it. If you watch the tape a day later or time travel back before it happens and watch the tape, it is just showing you what happens at the time the action was recorded. In neither case does it take away free will does it?

Your analogy is valid. Demonstrate that the image on the tape has any volition.

[Machinist]

Do we do what God sees, or does God see what we do?

[whag]

Different viewpoints. There is no specific teaching in the bible on arminianism vs calvinism. Both views are interpretations and possible explanations for what the bible describes.

All Christian views are interpretations of what the Bible describes.

[whag]

Do we do what God sees, or does God see what we do?

*bong rip*

[tabibito]

All Christian views are interpretations of what the Bible describes.

But very rarely is more than one interpretation valid.

[Machinist]

*bong rip*

No bong rip. I haven't hit that sticky icky in years.

I was reflecting on the lyric " He will guide us with His eyes."

[Tassman]

He knows it because I freely chose to do it. Not the other way around. His location in or out of time has nothing to do with it. That is where you get hung up on it. You are imagining God sitting in the past knowing the future. Try imagining God in the far future knowing the past. You wouldn't have a problem with that would you? If your future was actually God's past, That wouldn't be any different than your present self knowing your past actions. Neither would mean your actions in the past were not because of free will.

But you are evading the point that when God created you as an individual, he did so with the full knowledge (being omniscient) of exactly what you would be and do. In short, God made you that way.