Originally posted by Tassman
View Post
Announcement
Collapse
Apologetics 301 Guidelines
If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less
The Argument From Reason...
Collapse
X
-
Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
-
Could you offer the same for your position?
This should be a fun Sunday morning activity. Let me try:
1.)Because we have no alternative, we must assume that our reasoning abilities are generally reliable
2.)our assumptions are confirmed when we observe that our reasoning abilities are generally reliable
3.)This space is intentionally left blank
4. Therefore our perceptions of reality are generally reliable and true
Comment
-
Originally posted by Machinist View PostAnd I'm not arguing for the existence of God, I made that clear.
You're arguing for something transcendent though, right?Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
Comment
-
Originally posted by Machinist View PostCould you offer the same for your position?
This should be a fun Sunday morning activity. Let me try:
1.)Because we have no alternative, we must assume that our reasoning abilities are generally reliable
2.)our assumptions are confirmed when we observe that our reasoning abilities are generally reliable
3.)This space is intentionally left blank
4. Therefore our perceptions of reality are generally reliable and true
Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
Comment
-
Originally posted by seer View Post
No, we start with premises and move to the conclusion.
1. A rational trustworthy God exists.
2. He creates an intelligible cosmos/reality.
3. He creates rational beings with cognitive abilities that are generally reliable in grasping reality.
4. Therefore our perceptions of reality are generally reliable and true
That is a quick deductive argument for the reliability of human reasoning. It is non-circular, whether you agree with the premises or not. Could you offer the same for your position? And I'm not arguing for the existence of God, I made that clear.
Sure if you want to throw out logical justification.
Just a side note - why should I accept that the non-rational forces of nature creating human rationality is more plausible than a rational Creator creating human rationality?
- 1 like
Comment
-
You seem to think that unsupported premises are somehow superior to circularity. I disagree. And in this case, I think they are merely a devious way to avoid circularity. Stoic
No, I am just presenting a deductive argument to logically justify human reasoning.-Seer
Even though the assumption of a Rational God as a premise is just that, an assumption
It is still a formal deductive argument.
- 1 like
Comment
-
Originally posted by Stoic View PostYou seem to think that unsupported premises are somehow superior to circularity. I disagree. And in this case, I think they are merely a devious way to avoid circularity.
If logical justification included justifying that our reasoning abilities are generally reliable, then nothing would ever be logically justified, for anyone.
I accept that non-rational forces of nature creating human rationality is AS plausible as a rational Creator creating human rationality. You can accept whatever you want.
Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
Comment
-
Originally posted by seer View PostI'm a theist for goodness sake - how is my belief devious? Sheesh!
Nonsense, I just did justify them by starting with God. I think starting with a rational Creator could logically justify many things, like human consciousness, an intelligible universe, universal laws of logic and mathematics, universal moral truths, consistency of natural laws, etc...
In order to get from your premises to your conclusion, you have to assume that your reasoning abilities are generally reliable. Otherwise, your argument could be fallacious, and you wouldn't know it. So you still have reason to doubt whether your conclusion is true, and thus whether your reasoning abilities are reliable.
The fact that you thought you were avoiding circularity, when you weren't, should give you more reason to doubt whether your reasoning abilities are reliable.
Why is it as plausible?
If the answer you accept is "it just happened", then the same answer with regard to how the non-rational forces of nature created human rationality should be acceptable.
Comment
-
-
Originally posted by Stoic View PostNo one has claimed that your belief is devious. Just your argument.
Goodness, it is not devious, it is pretty straight forward.
Even though you thought you avoided circularity, you actually didn't.
In order to get from your premises to your conclusion, you have to assume that your reasoning abilities are generally reliable. Otherwise, your argument could be fallacious, and you wouldn't know it. So you still have reason to doubt whether your conclusion is true, and thus whether your reasoning abilities are reliable.
If you're trying to explain how human rationality came about, then explaining how the Creator's rationality came about is just as big an issue.
If the answer you accept is "it just happened", then the same answer with regard to how the non-rational forces of nature created human rationality should be acceptable.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
Comment
-
Originally posted by seer View PostThis is not about assuming whether our rational abilities are reliable or not, it about whether we can offer a logical justification. The theist can.
You want to justify X? Just make up a Y, such that Y->X.
1) Y
2) Y->X
3) Therefore, X.
Now you have a non-circular, deductive argument for X. Without any effort whatsoever.
Comment
-
Originally posted by seer View Post
Most of recorded human history. Most of your human history.
Comment
Related Threads
Collapse
Topics | Statistics | Last Post | ||
---|---|---|---|---|
Started by whag, 04-22-2024, 06:28 PM
|
17 responses
104 views
0 likes
|
Last Post
by Sparko
04-23-2024, 01:46 PM
|
||
Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 04-17-2024, 08:31 AM
|
70 responses
405 views
0 likes
|
Last Post 04-26-2024, 05:47 AM | ||
Started by whag, 04-09-2024, 01:04 PM
|
317 responses
1,407 views
0 likes
|
Last Post
by tabibito
Today, 07:19 AM
|
||
Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 02-04-2024, 05:06 AM
|
228 responses
1,119 views
0 likes
|
Last Post
by Sparko
Today, 08:04 AM
|
||
Started by whag, 01-18-2024, 01:35 PM
|
49 responses
370 views
0 likes
|
Last Post
by tabibito
05-15-2024, 02:53 PM
|
Comment