Story of creation: Genesis.

[whag]

Maybe this'd be a good time for us to talk about our science journeys. All of us were unaware of physics once.

We only realized we are a galaxy among hundreds of billions of galaxies like 50 years ago.

[Doug Shaver]

We only realized we are a galaxy among hundreds of billions of galaxies like 50 years ago.

It was closer to 90 years ago.

[Tassman]

Whoa... When did I say that I believe any of that. It was all a "what if" scenario. Reading the comments about my post was humorous. However, on a serious note, you have no idea what I was presenting. I'm talking about a deity who resides outside of the natural world and natural time that your beliefs are so grounded in, placing nature above God saying, "Well God can't simply speak light into existence, He has to create (Assuming you'll give Him any credit at all) some tiny organism which evolves into a Sun." That's non sense, with God anything is possible and the door is open for discussion. I told you, subjectiveness, openness, and you shut me down because you know how a sun and earth is formed, or you think you do. See your gonna tell me it evolved from something, right? But I am gonna allude to the book of John, all things came into existence through the Word... Interesting concepts we have, but who's right? Ultimately i'll say that God is the origin of everything that we know or are aware of, and your gonna say, well i have no idea, but if it's against God, you are incorrect.

Given that the universe refers to everything that is; where does it NOT

[shunyadragon]

Whoa... When did I say that I believe any of that. It was all a "what if" scenario. Reading the comments about my post was humorous. However, on a serious note, you have no idea what I was presenting. I'm talking about a deity who resides outside of the natural world and natural time that your beliefs are so grounded in, placing nature above God saying, "Well God can't simply speak light into existence, He has to create (Assuming you'll give Him any credit at all) some tiny organism which evolves into a Sun." That's non sense, with God anything is possible and the door is open for discussion. I told you, subjectiveness, openness, and you shut me down because you know how a sun and earth is formed, or you think you do. See your gonna tell me it evolved from something, right? But I am gonna allude to the book of John, all things came into existence through the Word... Interesting concepts we have, but who's right? Ultimately i'll say that God is the origin of everything that we know or are aware of, and your gonna say, well i have no idea, but if it's against God, you are incorrect.

'What if' scenarios should not be totally out of touch with reality, and well your best statement is "well I have no idea, . . "

[JimL]

Whoa... When did I say that I believe any of that. It was all a "what if" scenario. Reading the comments about my post was humorous. However, on a serious note, you have no idea what I was presenting. I'm talking about a deity who resides outside of the natural world and natural time that your beliefs are so grounded in, placing nature above God saying, "Well God can't simply speak light into existence, He has to create (Assuming you'll give Him any credit at all) some tiny organism which evolves into a Sun." That's non sense, with God anything is possible and the door is open for discussion. I told you, subjectiveness, openness, and you shut me down because you know how a sun and earth is formed, or you think you do. See your gonna tell me it evolved from something, right? But I am gonna allude to the book of John, all things came into existence through the Word... Interesting concepts we have, but who's right? Ultimately i'll say that God is the origin of everything that we know or are aware of, and your gonna say, well i have no idea, but if it's against God, you are incorrect.

My intent was not to shoot you down. I was just explaining to you that we now know how the natural world evolved whether God is the cause of it or not. We know how stars, planets, and black holes formed, and we know how gravity works. You can't just make up what if scenario's when they completely contradict the known reality and expect it to be taken seriously.

[IamLives]

'What if' scenarios should not be totally out of touch with reality, and well your best statement is "well I have no idea, . . "

Read my post a little more carefully, I said I have no idea what JimL would say about the origin of the universe, but what I say is God is the origin, and that, my friend, is the greatest statement anyone could make regarding this discussion. Thanks for being so critical.

I guess I can be serious now, about this origin/creation discussion. Since none of you will tolerate 'what if' scenarios, and I apologize for playing games with all of you.

Now my beliefs are grounded in the Word of God which I fully believe is one hundred percent inerrant and infallible. Because of this, I will allude to the Biblical text. In the Book of Genesis, the first two verses give us clear understanding of the origin of the Universe/God and Man account. Before I go on, let me point out that the Bible is about God and Man, so it thoroughly consists of all that pertains to those two things. The Universe is not spoken of in detail because it is not of much significance/importance. However, these first two verses give you the answers this discussion is asking for. I'm not going to into The Leibnizian Cosmological Argument in order to argue that there is a creator, it doesn't matter, that's my belief (that there is a creator), therefore that's where I'm coming from, and this is where I stand.

Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." 2 "The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters." -NASB

Did you catch it? The verses are two completely different stories. The first, tell us of the origin of the universe. The second, begins to tell us the story of God and man. This is really isn't hard to grasp. God created the heavens and the earth in the beginning, the Greek word for "beginning" means beginning/first/choice part. This is when it happened. That is all Genesis tells us about the origin of the Universe, that God created it, therefore that is the sole reason why the existence of the Universe happened, became as it is. The Bible does not say everything just popped into existence as planets and stars that appear to be very very old, it says that in the beginning, God created. However when our world comes into play (and understand we are, as far as any of us know, the only habitable planet), that is when God starts speaking (e.g. Let there be light).

[IamLives]

Given that the universe refers to everything that is; where does it NOT

^^^ This does not deserve a response... God resides in Heaven. To exist means to occupy space and time? Where did you come up with that?

[Tassman]

^^^ This does not deserve a response... God resides in Heaven. To exist means to occupy space and time? Where did you come up with that?

It's a reasonable question and warrants a response: Given that the universe refers to everything that is; where does it NOT exist? Where are the boundaries of the natural universe, outside of which God supposedly resides in his own universe? What do you mean "God resides in Heaven"?

[IamLives]

It's a reasonable question and warrants a response: Given that the universe refers to everything that is; where does it NOT exist? Where are the boundaries of the natural universe, outside of which God supposedly resides in his own universe? What do you mean "God resides in Heaven"?

I'm sorry but I'm not going to teach you basic Biblical teachings, that's not what this thread is about. I think it's great that you're trying your best to debate me, but you need to not get side-tracked by little details of things I said, especially if we've already moved past the silliness of this discussion. I encourage you to stay on topic. However, if you still seek answers, do so in an appropriate manner and pm me, or research yourself, but I'd be happy to discuss things with you, appropriately of course.

[Tassman]

I'm sorry but I'm not going to teach you basic Biblical teachings, that's not what this thread is about. I think it's great that you're trying your best to debate me, but you need to not get side-tracked by little details of things I said, especially if we've already moved past the silliness of this discussion. I encourage you to stay on topic. However, if you still seek answers, do so in an appropriate manner and pm me, or research yourself, but I'd be happy to discuss things with you, appropriately of course.

[MaxVel]

You're asking him to fit his worldview within the terms of your worldview, which is nonsensical when the two are so different.

You're asking a meaningless question by demanding that he show you (within his worldview) what the physical location of a non-physical being is. You should know better than to engage in such unproductive behaviour. But obviously you don't.

[Tassman]

You're asking him to fit his worldview within the terms of your worldview, which is nonsensical when the two are so different.

You're asking a meaningless question by demanding that he show you (within his worldview) what the physical location of a non-physical being is. You should know better than to engage in such unproductive behaviour. But obviously you don't.

Given that the universe consists of a space-time continuum encompassing everything and is governed by natural physical laws, how does IamLives explain the juxtaposition of his posited immaterial supernatural entity with the natural material universe.

In short, his assertion is meaningless speculation.

[MaxVel]

Given that the universe consists of a space-time continuum encompassing everything and is governed by natural physical laws, how does IamLives explain the juxtaposition of his posited immaterial supernatural entity with the natural material universe.

In short, his assertion is meaningless speculation.

Given that you've just assumed your worldview to be true*, how can anyone show that their different worldview is correct?


In short, your question requires that he take your worldview for true as a given, and defend his worldview in the face of that. How do you know that 'the universe, which consists of a space-time continuum, does 'encompass everything'?



* See the underlined above.

[klaus54]

The Genesis story of Creation is describing our own galaxy at most, as if it were the beginning of the universe. The earth for instance, our earth, didn't exist until 10 billion years after the beginning of the universe. There are billions of galaxies with billions of solar systems that existed prior to the forming of our own galaxy and we know this because the light by which we see them took billions more years to reach the earth than the 4.5 billion years that earth itself has existed. In other words we are seeing other galaxies as they existed billions of years before the earth itself existed. This is obvious evidence that the story is not true or God inspired but is rather a man made story based on the belief that what they saw of the universe was all that there was. I know that there is one here who likes to argue that although stars may form naturally now, the first star, according to him, was created, and that first star he assumes to be the one God placed in the sky above the earth at the beginning of creation. Well we know that there are billions of stars that have existed many billions of years before our own star existed so regardless whether his argument were true it would have nothing to do with what he is trying to assert. But i regress. The main point is that no matter how one tries to interpret Genesis, i.e. creation in seven days, seven thousand days, seven million days, or whatever, our galaxy, our solar system, our sun and earth wasn't the beginning of creation, it came long after, billions and billions of years after the birth of many other galaxies.

Up until the time of Edwin Hubble in the 1920s, the astrophysical notion of the "universe" would have been our galaxy. The etymology of "galaxy" derives from the the word for "milk". So I would assume that a story written in terms an ANE civilization understood would also grossly simplified from the viewpoint of modern science.

[klaus54]

Just a brief observation: It seemeth to me that "new" atheists and YECs read the Genesis creation accounts the same way. The former to use as a strawman to mock Judeo-Christian faith, the latter to force an non-salvific (hopefully that's how they mean it!) issue to the forefront and (unfortunately) challenge a tottering believer's faith.