Proofs for the Existence of God

[Roy]

The fallacy of the inverse says there is insufficient reason to reach the conclusion, even if all the premises are true.

No it doesn't.

The fallacy of the inverse says (p -> q) -/-> (!p -> !q).

[JimL]

The Trinity is not irrational, it is supra rational. There are no contradictions in the doctrines of the Trinity, but there is no resolution to the mystery of the Trinity. For example nobody knows how there are three substantial relations in the one substance of God, or how the Father generates the Son. Such are the mysteries of the Trinity.

That which is rational is explainable by reason. If you can't explain the trinity in reasonable, logical way, then simply calling it rational doesn't make it so.

[JohnMartin]

That which is rational is explainable by reason. If you can't explain the trinity in reasonable, logical way, then simply calling it rational doesn't make it so.

The Trinity is explicable by reason as far as reason can state truth about the Trinity. The Trinity is also supernatural and therefore is in itself a reality beyond human experience and therefore beyond human reason. The Trinity is a divine mystery, and as a mystery, cannot be explained by human reason, but can be defended by human reason against the rationalists, who object to the Trinity.

Yes, that which is rational is explainable by reason. But that which is super rational is only understood by a supernatural intellect. That which is reasonable is that which is natural. That which is supra reasonable, is that which is super natural. What is supra rational is not against reason, as the supra rational does not contain any logic errors, but is above reason. Reason then has some access to the supernatural (SN) in so far as the SN is intelligible, but because the SN is above reason, the SN is incomprehensible. Thereby the SN cannot be fully understood by the human intellect.

JM

[JohnMartin]

No it doesn't.

The fallacy of the inverse says (p -> q) -/-> (!p -> !q).

The alleged error doesn't apply anyway for the reasons already given.

creature -> potency and act.
then
God -> pure act.

JM

[JohnMartin]

You haven't demonstrated that the two are the same.

Then why do you keep assuming it?

Argument for the Pure Act is the Prime Act is the Supreme Being.

1) The prime act is that act which is not dependent upon another act.
2) The prime act is then that act which is not caused by another.
3) What is not caused by another is simple,
4) For that which is composed of metaphysical parts is dependent upon another cause of the unity of the diverse.
5) The prime act is then act without potency, which is pure act.
6) Act is does be.
7) Pure act is then being without limit.
8) Pure act is then the act with the most being.
9) As perfection is the fullness of being, then that which has the most being is most perfect.
10) What is most perfect is the supreme.
11) Pure act, is the most being, which is the most perfect.
12) Therefore pure act is the supreme.
13) And because the prime act is pure act. (5)
14) Then the prime act is pure act, which is the supreme being.

Then why do you keep assuming it?

Show me where I've done so above. The argument moves from the nature of the prime act as non dependent, then to the nature of being as a perfection, then concludes to the prime act as the supreme being. The nature of the prime act is firstly described, then shown to be real from the nature of things having metaphysical parts, which are then dependent upon a prime act. The rest follows that the prime act is the supreme being. Nowhere is the existence of the prime being assumed, nor the existence of the supreme being assumed. Both are derived via the reality of potency and act, and dependence of the composed upon the prime, simple act.

JM

[JimL]

The Trinity is explicable by reason as far as reason can state truth about the Trinity.

And how far does reason take you?

The Trinity is also supernatural and therefore is in itself a reality beyond human experience and therefore beyond human reason.

Assuming a supernatural exists of course

The Trinity is a divine mystery, and as a mystery, cannot be explained by human reason, but can be defended by human reason against the rationalists, who object to the Trinity.

If that were true, then it wuldn't be a mystery to you.

Yes, that which is rational is explainable by reason. But that which is super rational is only understood by a supernatural intellect. That which is reasonable is that which is natural. That which is supra reasonable, is that which is super natural. What is supra rational is not against reason, as the supra rational does not contain any logic errors, but is above reason. Reason then has some access to the supernatural (SN) in so far as the SN is intelligible, but because the SN is above reason, the SN is incomprehensible. Thereby the SN cannot be fully understood by the human intellect.

Again, assuming there to be a supra natural. Thats not a rational argument, its just an unfounded assertion of your beliefs in the existence of a mysterious supra natural.

[JohnMartin]

Quote Originally Posted by JohnMartin View Post
The Trinity is explicable by reason as far as reason can state truth about the Trinity.

And how far does reason take you?

Reason takes us to a knowledge of the Trinity without knowing the full mystery of how the Trinity is what it is. The mystery is fully revealed to men in the next life who are given the vision of God.

The Trinity is also supernatural and therefore is in itself a reality beyond human experience and therefore beyond human reason.
Assuming a supernatural exists of course

Argument for the Existence of the Super Natural order.

Part 1 - Argument for the Pure Act is the Prime Act is the Supreme Being.

1) The prime act is that act which is not dependent upon another act.
2) The prime act is then that act which is not caused by another.
3) What is not caused by another is simple,
4) For that which is composed of metaphysical parts is dependent upon another cause of the unity of the diverse.
5) The prime act is then act without potency, which is pure act.
6) Act is does be.
7) Pure act is then being without limit.
8) Pure act is then the act with the most being.
9) As perfection is the fullness of being, then that which has the most being is most perfect.
10) What is most perfect is the supreme.
11) Pure act, is the most being, which is the most perfect.
12) Therefore pure act is the supreme.
13) And because the prime act is pure act. (5)
14) Then the prime act is pure act, which is the supreme being.

Part 2 Show the Supreme Being is a Super Nature.

Being is the fundamental perfection of all things.
Nature is a thing in act (to be).
Therefore being is the fundamental perfection of nature.

Being as the fundamental perfection of nature, enacts nature.
What enacts nature, virtually contains all perfection of nature.
But being in nature is caused by the prime act as the universal cause of being.
Therefore the prime act as the cause of being virtually contains all perfections of nature.

But as the prime act is one, and only act (without potency), all perfections of nature are virtually contained within the one act.
But what contains all perfections of nature within the one act, virtually has the perfections of all natures in one act.
But to have virtually, is to have according to power.
And, power in the prime act is not distinguished from the be of the prime.
For in the prime act, all perfection is act.
Therefore what is a perfection of a nature, in the prime act, is the prime act.

The prime act is act without limit.
The prime act is then perfection of nature without limit.
Therefore what has the perfections of all natures in one act is a nature with infinitely more perfection than all other natures.

What has infinitely more perfection than all other natures, is the supreme nature.
The supreme nature as pure act is the nature above all other natures, without limit.
What is above all other natures without limit is a nature that is a super nature.
A super nature is the prime act.
The prime act is the supreme being.
Therefore the supreme being is a super nature.

Part 3 Argument for the Existence of the Supernatural Order

An order is defined as a disposition according to before and after, relative to some principle.
If a principle is supernatural, then the principle acts in a supernatural manner.
What acts in a supernatural manner is disposed to act according to before and after in a supernatural manner.
The supreme being is a super nature.
A super nature is pure act, and act is the principle of act.
Therefore the super nature is a supernatural principle disposed to act according to before and after in a supernatural manner.
As both 1) the supernatural principle exists and 2) the manner by which the supernatural principle acts according to before and after exists,
then the supernatural order exists.
Therefore the supernatural order exists.

The Trinity is a divine mystery, and as a mystery, cannot be explained by human reason, but can be defended by human reason against the rationalists, who object to the Trinity.

If that were true, then it wouldn't be a mystery to you.

The mystery of the Trinity has been revealed in human language. The language used by God has an divinized meaning (by analogy of the meaning of the words indicating a divine reality) whereby men can come to some understanding of the supernatural mystery of the Trinity. For example, God has revealed that in God, there are three persons, with one nature, whereby each person is opposed to the other person by opposition of relation. Men can know what a nature is, person and relation. From this we can know something of the Trinity, but each act of knowledge always ends up in a rational road block, whereby more questions are asked, and eventually no rational explanation can be given - hence the mystery. For example, we know the Father generates the Son. But we don't know how it is done. Therefore how the Father generates the Son is a mystery, whereby a mystery is a secret hidden in God, then revealed by God, but never fully understood by men. The Christian God is a God of revealed secrets.

Yes, that which is rational is explainable by reason. But that which is super rational is only understood by a supernatural intellect. That which is reasonable is that which is natural. That which is supra reasonable, is that which is super natural. What is supra rational is not against reason, as the supra rational does not contain any logic errors, but is above reason. Reason then has some access to the supernatural (SN) in so far as the SN is intelligible, but because the SN is above reason, the SN is incomprehensible. Thereby the SN cannot be fully understood by the human intellect.

Again, assuming there to be a supra natural. Thats not a rational argument, its just an unfounded assertion of your beliefs in the existence of a mysterious supra natural..

See the argument given above for the existence of the supernatural.

JM

[JimL]

Reason takes us to a knowledge of the Trinity without knowing the full mystery of how the Trinity is what it is. The mystery is fully revealed to men in the next life who are given the vision of God.

No, reason does not take you to a knowledge of the Trinity, what brought you there was some ones say so, not reason.

Argument for the Existence of the Super Natural order.

Part 1 - Argument for the Pure Act is the Prime Act is the Supreme Being.

1) The prime act is that act which is not dependent upon another act.
2) The prime act is then that act which is not caused by another.
3) What is not caused by another is simple,
4) For that which is composed of metaphysical parts is dependent upon another cause of the unity of the diverse.
5) The prime act is then act without potency, which is pure act.
6) Act is does be.
7) Pure act is then being without limit.
8) Pure act is then the act with the most being.
9) As perfection is the fullness of being, then that which has the most being is most perfect.
10) What is most perfect is the supreme.
11) Pure act, is the most being, which is the most perfect.
12) Therefore pure act is the supreme.
13) And because the prime act is pure act. (5)
14) Then the prime act is pure act, which is the supreme being.

Part 2 Show the Supreme Being is a Super Nature.

Being is the fundamental perfection of all things.
Nature is a thing in act (to be).
Therefore being is the fundamental perfection of nature.

Being as the fundamental perfection of nature, enacts nature.
What enacts nature, virtually contains all perfection of nature.
But being in nature is caused by the prime act as the universal cause of being.
Therefore the prime act as the cause of being virtually contains all perfections of nature.

But as the prime act is one, and only act (without potency), all perfections of nature are virtually contained within the one act.
But what contains all perfections of nature within the one act, virtually has the perfections of all natures in one act.
But to have virtually, is to have according to power.
And, power in the prime act is not distinguished from the be of the prime.
For in the prime act, all perfection is act.
Therefore what is a perfection of a nature, in the prime act, is the prime act.

The prime act is act without limit.
The prime act is then perfection of nature without limit.
Therefore what has the perfections of all natures in one act is a nature with infinitely more perfection than all other natures.

What has infinitely more perfection than all other natures, is the supreme nature.
The supreme nature as pure act is the nature above all other natures, without limit.
What is above all other natures without limit is a nature that is a super nature.
A super nature is the prime act.
The prime act is the supreme being.
Therefore the supreme being is a super nature.

Energy is simple, and yet matter is not, but they are virtually one and the same substance. No supra natural needed.

Part 3 Argument for the Existence of the Supernatural Order

An order is defined as a disposition according to before and after, relative to some principle.
If a principle is supernatural, then the principle acts in a supernatural manner.
What acts in a supernatural manner is disposed to act according to before and after in a supernatural manner.
The supreme being is a super nature.
A super nature is pure act, and act is the principle of act.
Therefore the super nature is a supernatural principle disposed to act according to before and after in a supernatural manner.
As both 1) the supernatural principle exists and 2) the manner by which the supernatural principle acts according to before and after exists,
then the supernatural order exists.
Therefore the supernatural order exists.

Where does the "being" come in, or are you just assuming necessary existence is a being, in the sense of a mind?

The mystery of the Trinity has been revealed in human language. The language used by God has an divinized meaning (by analogy of the meaning of the words indicating a divine reality) whereby men can come to some understanding of the supernatural mystery of the Trinity. For example, God has revealed that in God, there are three persons, with one nature, whereby each person is opposed to the other person by opposition of relation. Men can know what a nature is, person and relation. From this we can know something of the Trinity, but each act of knowledge always ends up in a rational road block, whereby more questions are asked, and eventually no rational explanation can be given - hence the mystery. For example, we know the Father generates the Son. But we don't know how it is done. Therefore how the Father generates the Son is a mystery, whereby a mystery is a secret hidden in God, then revealed by God, but never fully understood by men. The Christian God is a God of revealed secrets.

Perhaps the reason no rational explanation can be given is because there is no rational explanation, and there is no rational explanation because you've been hoodwinked into believing the irrational.

See the argument given above for the existence of the supernatural.

Why, its a terrible argument.
JM[/QUOTE]

[JohnMartin]

Reason takes us to a knowledge of the Trinity without knowing the full mystery of how the Trinity is what it is. The mystery is fully revealed to men in the next life who are given the vision of God.

No, reason does not take you to a knowledge of the Trinity, what brought you there was some ones say so, not reason.

The Trinity is a revealed doctrine. But reason can then discover something about the nature of the Trinity after the revelation has been accepted.

Energy is simple, and yet matter is not, but they are virtually one and the same substance. No supra natural needed.

Energy is finite and therefore composed of potency and act. Such implies a prime act, which therefore concludes to the supernatural order, as shown above.

Part 3 Argument for the Existence of the Supernatural Order

An order is defined as a disposition according to before and after, relative to some principle.
If a principle is supernatural, then the principle acts in a supernatural manner.
What acts in a supernatural manner is disposed to act according to before and after in a supernatural manner.
The supreme being is a super nature.
A super nature is pure act, and act is the principle of act.
Therefore the super nature is a supernatural principle disposed to act according to before and after in a supernatural manner.
As both 1) the supernatural principle exists and 2) the manner by which the supernatural principle acts according to before and after exists,
then the supernatural order exists.
Therefore the supernatural order exists.

Where does the "being" come in, or are you just assuming necessary existence is a being, in the sense of a mind?

Being is the actualization of all acts. Wherever act is stated, being is inferred.

The mystery of the Trinity has been revealed in human language. The language used by God has an divinized meaning (by analogy of the meaning of the words indicating a divine reality) whereby men can come to some understanding of the supernatural mystery of the Trinity. For example, God has revealed that in God, there are three persons, with one nature, whereby each person is opposed to the other person by opposition of relation. Men can know what a nature is, person and relation. From this we can know something of the Trinity, but each act of knowledge always ends up in a rational road block, whereby more questions are asked, and eventually no rational explanation can be given - hence the mystery. For example, we know the Father generates the Son. But we don't know how it is done. Therefore how the Father generates the Son is a mystery, whereby a mystery is a secret hidden in God, then revealed by God, but never fully understood by men. The Christian God is a God of revealed secrets.

Perhaps the reason no rational explanation can be given is because there is no rational explanation, and there is no rational explanation because you've been hoodwinked into believing the irrational.

No. There is plenty of circumstantial evidence that the Trinity has been revealed by God. The Christ event and the history of the Catholic Church is strong evidence that the Trinitarian God is the true God. The Christ event can be verified as a real, historical event. The history of the Church also evidences the moral miracle of the truth of Church teaching on faith and morals. Because men are sinners, every human institution will eventually teach error on faith and morals. For example, Protestantism teaches divorce and remarriage, and contraception are not sinful, when both are sins. The ongoing infallibility of the Church is a moral miracle not found in any other institution.

See the argument given above for the existence of the supernatural.

Why, its a terrible argument.
JM

Not demonstrated. The argument stands.

JM

[Doug Shaver]

The Trinity is a revealed doctrine.

Which means somebody told you it was revealed, and you believed them. You believe God is a Trinity because someone said so, and you trust them.

[JohnMartin]

Which means somebody told you it was revealed, and you believed them. You believe God is a Trinity because someone said so, and you trust them.

Yes. The doctrine of the Trinity was given to the Church from God. The apostles are the building stones of the Church, who received the revelation from Christ, who was the incarnate Word of God. The Church is then the instrument through which God speaks the the world. The doctrine of the Trinity is verified through the divine word and the co-incident divine work. The divine word acted to promise to bless the nations through Abraham's seed. And that blessing came through Christ, as the seed of Abraham. Christ as the historical work of God, coincides with the divine promises made to Abraham. As only God can control world history, then the divine promise made to Abraham is verified by the divine power granted to the line of Abraham to deliver the divine promise.

The fulfillment of the divine promise through Christ involves the Church being united to the Holy Spirit as the soul of the mystical body. The Holy Spirit is the divine person acting to protect the Church from falling into error, made manifest in Church tradition and the Church councils. The Father makes a promise to Abraham. The Father then sends the Son to do His divine work. Then the Father and the Son send the Holy Spirit to do the divine work within the Church. Part of that divine work is manifested in the doctrine of the Trinity, along with all the others doctrines of the Catholic faith.

JM

[Roy]

Argument for the Pure Act is the Prime Act is the Supreme Being.

1) The prime act is that act which is not dependent upon another act.
2) The prime act is then that act which is not caused by another.
3) What is not caused by another is simple,
4) For that which is composed of metaphysical parts is dependent upon another cause of the unity of the diverse.
5) The prime act is then act without potency, which is pure act.
6) Act is does be.
7) Pure act is then being without limit.
8) Pure act is then the act with the most being.
9) As perfection is the fullness of being, then that which has the most being is most perfect.
10) What is most perfect is the supreme.
11) Pure act, is the most being, which is the most perfect.
12) Therefore pure act is the supreme.
13) And because the prime act is pure act. (5)
14) Then the prime act is pure act, which is the supreme being.



Show me where I've done so above.

Step 5.

You've also assumed that there is a single prime act, rather than multiple, and either changed your definition of "supreme" from greatest to most perfect or simply assumed that whatever is greatest is also most perfect. Since your own concept of 'God' seems to include both, you are probably assuming your god's existence at this point.

[Roy]

4) For that which is composed of metaphysical parts is dependent upon another cause of the unity of the diverse.

P.S. Since your God is composed of three parts (father/son/spook), according to your own logic it must be dependent on another cause for the unity of those parts, and therefore cannot be the supreme being.

[Roy]

Yes. The doctrine of the Trinity was given to the Church from God.

When and where? It's not in the bible.

[JonathanL]

(father/son/spook)

Was that really necessary?