Originally posted by Gary
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Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Gary & Rhinestone's Thread on Burial and Resurrection of Christ
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Last edited by JonathanL; 05-20-2016, 12:10 AM.
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Originally posted by Gary View PostYou are correct. I said that the Church of the Holy Sepulchre "is" a fraud. I should have said "very likely is a fraud". Thank you for the correction.
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Originally posted by Adam View PostGood question.
Even before I had formally stated my Thesis, I read reviews of Bauckham's 2006 book. I was unimpressed, because he merely argues that eyewitnesses were at least consulted in all the gospel writings. He never argued that eyewitnesses had themselves written or dictated the sources of the gospels. His theory comes up with gospels written within fewer decades of the Jesus. Mine comes up even with some eyewitnesses writing while Jesus was still preaching. Four others wrote within two or three decades of Jesus.
His is a more rigorous Oral History theory, like Gerhardsson. Mine denounces the Oral History theory and asserts all sources were written early. (The actual finishing of the various four gospels takes decades, however.)
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostChanging it from your initial claim that "the Church of the Holy Sepulchre is a fraud" to "the Church of the Holy Sepulchre very likely is a fraud" doesn't make your arguments and reasoning in support of that position any less fallacious.
(I hope that helps the Pigster hate me just a little bit less!)Last edited by Gary; 05-20-2016, 12:53 AM.
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Originally posted by Gary View PostI'm sure you and other Christians see it that way, but most skeptics would agree with me: Based on the complete lack of evidence that anyone in the second or third century mentions knowing the location of the Empty Tomb, the current RCC/EOC Empty Tomb is very likely a fraud.
Originally posted by Gary View PostHowever, if it will make you feel any better, the Protestant Empty Tomb is even more likely to be a fraud. I wouldn't pay a wooden nickel to see the Protestant one, but I would pay two wooden nickels to see the RCC/EOC site just because of the history surrounding it.
I'm a protestant myself, but AFAICT the Garden Tomb is not any more likely to be the tomb of Jesus than the Holy Sepulchre.Last edited by JonathanL; 05-20-2016, 01:08 AM.
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My, SUCH a suspicious mind. No chance it might all be a well-intended mistake or misplaced hope?
Never mind.
As I pointed out, it's entirely probable the 1st and 2nd century Christians were more interested in surviving persecution and fighting off heresies....(and, you know, spreading the faith while doing all that). And OBP did mention that attitudes about veneration of sacred things changed over the centuries.
Remember we're discussing probabilities.Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostActually, if I recall correctly, BP is an atheist who is attracted to the ideology/philosophy of heathenry, rather than being someone who believe in pagan gods. Give me a second and I'll dig up a pertinent quote:
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostHahaha. I misread DesertBeran's post and amen'd her cause I thought she wrote that BP was heaven.
ETA: You mispelled my name too...Last edited by DesertBerean; 05-20-2016, 10:11 AM.Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostLack of evidence simply gives you basis to not believe the claim that there are sufficient grounds to assert that the Holy Sepulchre is the actual tomb of Jesus, it does not provide you with a strong enough case for the position that it is "very likely a fraud".
I'm a protestant myself, but AFAICT the Garden Tomb is not any more likely to be the tomb of Jesus than the Holy Sepulchre.
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Originally posted by DesertBerean View PostMy, SUCH a suspicious mind. No chance it might all be a well-intended mistake or misplaced hope?
Never mind.
As I pointed out, it's entirely probable the 1st and 2nd century Christians were more interested in surviving persecution and fighting off heresies....(and, you know, spreading the faith while doing all that). And OBP did mention that attitudes about veneration of sacred things changed over the centuries.
Remember we're discussing probabilities.
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Originally posted by Gary View PostThere's always a "harmonization", isn't there?
Or do you think there was no persecution? Or what?Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette
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Originally posted by DesertBerean View PostIsn't that what we're supposed to be striving for here....seeking to make sense of the evidence?
Or do you think there was no persecution? Or what?
The four gospels have significant discrepancies in the Empty Tomb stories.
Paul never mentions an Empty Tomb.
All evidence points to the Empty Tomb being an invention of the author of Mark.
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Originally posted by Gary View PostRead the history of how the site of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre was selected. You will see it is most likely a fraud.
Speaking as one who knows very little about the history of the edifice.Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette
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