Originally posted by Gary
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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
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Gary & Rhinestone's Thread on Burial and Resurrection of Christ
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Originally posted by 37818 View Post". . . Then said Pilate to the chief priests and [to] the people, I find no fault in this man. . . ." -- Luke 23:4.
". . . Take ye him, and crucify [him]: for I find no fault in him. . . ." -- John 19:6.
". . . title then read many of the Jews: for the place where Jesus was crucified was nigh to the city: and it was written in Hebrew, [and] Greek, [and] Latin. Then said the chief priests of the Jews to Pilate, Write not, The King of the Jews; but that he said, I am King of the Jews. Pilate answered, What I have written I have written. . . ." -- John 19:20-23.
Arguably what Pontius Pilate wrote was politically expedient to justify crucifying Him.
Na, na, na.
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostEvans protest isn't that Jesus wasn't charged for claiming to be King of the Jews, his protest is that Jesus was not plotting "serious violence against the state", which is the type of charge that, according to the Digesta, Roman law would not allow the release of bodies. Jesus was most certainly not plotting serious violence against the state, which included "plotting the death of the emperor, plotting or attempting to assassinate a Roman official, raising an army, failing to relinquish command of an army, siding with an enemy of the empire, fomenting armed rebellion, turning an ally against Rome, etc." (Digesta chapter 4 of book 48)
You either have to deny the historicity of the Gospels regarding Jesus "triumphant" entry into Jerusalem, or admit that he was executed for the crime of agitating against Roman rule: treason.Last edited by Gary; 05-14-2016, 04:26 PM.
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Originally posted by Gary View PostThe Digesta clearly states that the bodies of persons crucified for high treason typically were not handed over for proper burial. The onus is on you to prove that Jesus was...
...not executed for claiming to be the King of the Jews
and that,
...claiming to be the King of the Jews was not a form of treason.
Most NT scholars say you are wrong.
"It seems most unlikely that Jesus was condemned for 'high treason,' given the discussion of treasonAlmost all of the examples discussed in chapter 4 of book 48 involve serious violence against the state
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Originally posted by DesertBerean View Postlet's do this:
List the NT scholars you agree with. Then list the NT scholars you DON'T agree with. Then we, your readers, can verify if said scholars' statements are consist with your premise.
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Originally posted by Gary View PostUsing the gospels to confirm the historical reliability of the gospels.
The question was: "Was Jesus buried in a tomb?"
So no, using the Gospels as a source concerning the fate of Jesus isn't circular reasoning.Actually YOU put Trump in the White House. He wouldn't have gotten 1% of the vote if it wasn't for the widespread spiritual and cultural devastation caused by progressive policies. There's no "this country" left with your immigration policies, your "allies" are worthless and even more suicidal than you are and democracy is a sick joke that I hope nobody ever thinks about repeating when the current order collapses. - Darth_Executor striking a conciliatory note in Civics 101
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostNeither of those are claims that Evans has made. Evans' claim is specifically,
"It seems most unlikely that Jesus was condemned for 'high treason,' given the discussion of treasonAlmost all of the examples discussed in chapter 4 of book 48 involve serious violence against the state
Jesus' claim of being the Messiah was as much a threat on the Emperor as claiming that he intended to kill the Emperor. It was treason; plain and simple.
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Originally posted by Gary View PostHe claimed (or at least refused to deny he had claimed) of being the Jewish Messiah. Anyone in Palestine who knew anything about Jews and their religion would know that they were waiting for a messenger from God who would destroy their enemies and re-establish the Davidic throne. If Jesus was claiming to be this Messiah, he was therefore claiming that he was going to overthrow Roman rule. The idea that the Romans understood that Jesus' "kingdom" was spiritual in nature only is preposterous. Even the disciples were expecting up until the last minute to overthrow Rome and sit on real thrones with Jesus in the new Kingdom of Israel.
Jesus' claim of being the Messiah was as much a threat on the Emperor as claiming that he intended to kill the Emperor. It was treason; plain and simple.Actually YOU put Trump in the White House. He wouldn't have gotten 1% of the vote if it wasn't for the widespread spiritual and cultural devastation caused by progressive policies. There's no "this country" left with your immigration policies, your "allies" are worthless and even more suicidal than you are and democracy is a sick joke that I hope nobody ever thinks about repeating when the current order collapses. - Darth_Executor striking a conciliatory note in Civics 101
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Originally posted by Gary View PostIf the gospels are correct, Jesus entered the city of Jerusalem with massive crowds proclaiming him as the Messiah; the "messiah" by definition was the King of the Jews, sent by God himself, who would defeat all of Israel's enemies and re-establish the throne of David. These crowds weren't gathering to cheer Jesus the pacifist. They believed that Jesus "kingdom" was a political kingdom established by military might and the overthrow of the Romans. If these events of massive crowds gathering to greet their "king" are historical, this would have been taken as a SERIOUS threat to Rome.
You either have to deny the historicity of the Gospels regarding Jesus "triumphant" entry into Jerusalem, or admit that he was executed for the crime of agitating against Roman rule: treason.
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostThe problem is two fold. The first problem is that he's creating a strawman about what has been claimed. The second problem is that he hasn't actually read any NT scholars outside of quote-mining those he finds in quick google searches.Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette
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Originally posted by DesertBerean View PostHm. Did he, as claimed, do those lists in this thread or do I need to hunt them down?Last edited by Adrift; 05-14-2016, 05:03 PM.
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Originally posted by Gary View PostI already did that. See above.Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette
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