Originally posted by Gary
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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
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Gary & Rhinestone's Thread on Burial and Resurrection of Christ
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Originally posted by psstein View Post1 Thess. 2:14-16 is possibly a later interpolation, as many scholars have argued. I think 1 Cor. 2:8 is actually a reference to Pilate.
The early church, as it became more disconnected from its Jewish roots, became more anti-Jewish. This is especially on display in the Gospel of John, where it's often described as "Jesus, the Disciples, and the Jews."Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostNo, it doesn't. The majority of scholars accept the empty tomb tradition.
It is true that the majority of NT scholars believe that Jesus' was buried in the tomb, but a significant minority of scholars say the majority is wrong on this issue.
So if the overwhelming majority on NT scholars is right about the crime for which Jesus was executed, this indicates that the majority is wrong about the historicity of the Empty Tomb story. On this issue, the majority is most likely wrong.
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Originally posted by psstein View PostThe mass of textual (and archeological) evidence speaks against this. As Dale Allison points out in his Resurrecting Jesus, it's astounding that we've a crucified body with the nails in it. The fact is that the nails were thought to provide some type of protection and were often removed to be used as amulets of a type.
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Originally posted by psstein View PostI'm not convinced that treason is the answer. Treason is also a bit of loaded term, because there were several messianic claimants in 1st century Palestine (I'm using Palestine deliberately here; the area is larger than simply Israel).
I also don't think you can use the Digesta in the way that it's being used. It dates from the time of Justininan, and in order to use it at all, you have to carefully sift through it for first century material.
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostSorry, I'm not seeing it. Even in Mark 15, the responsibility is clearly placed on the Jews. Developments prior to this rest pretty much wholly on speculation. 1 Cor. 2:8 is too vague to determine either way. 1 Thes. 2:15 places the blame squarely on the Jews.
It is only IF Christians want to claim that the trial details, as told in Mark, are historical, do we skeptics then demand that you accept that the Empty Tomb story is then very unlikely as a man executed for claiming to be a usurper to the power of Rome in Palestine (the King of the Jews) would be allowed to have a proper Jewish burial.Last edited by Gary; 05-14-2016, 03:41 PM.
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Originally posted by psstein View PostJosephus had access to earlier sources... just like a modern historian can write about World War II or the Weimar Republic.Last edited by Gary; 05-14-2016, 03:47 PM.
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Originally posted by Gary View PostDo you believe that the crime for which Jesus was condemned by Pilate was claiming to be the King of the Jews? Do you believe that most NT scholars believe that Jesus was condemned for this crime?
The event at the Temple probably resulted in Jesus' death; the charge I'm not sure of.
As for what NT scholars believe, I don't know. Crossan's Jesus gets crucified as a seeming accident...
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Originally posted by Abigail View PostGary the Jews had laws about disposal of corpses because of defilement issues and during peacetime it is more reasonable to think the Romans would allow burial on account of these laws in order to appease Jewish sentiment. I am sure even outright enemies of Rome were probably allowed burial since the Romans were not stupid and knew that going too far could become a catalyst for uprising. People who feel they have nothing to lose are more likely to revolt. Pilate did not believe Jesus was an enemy of Rome, this much is clear from the gospels where he is shown as being outmanouvered by those wanting rid of Jesus. It also seems like Joseph got in first to ask for the body so Pilate may not have seen anything amiss there since if Joseph hadn't gone when he did the elders themselves might have disposed of the body. It is also likely that Pilate was not interested in the burial details.
You have no evidence other than the Gospels to back any of this up.
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostVita Sua.
...not executed for claiming to be the King of the Jews
and that,
...claiming to be the King of the Jews was not a form of treason.
Most NT scholars say you are wrong.
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Originally posted by psstein View PostPossibly. I'm not quite sure, honestly. I don't think Jesus claimed to be the King of the Jews, and outside of John, none of the evangelists have him making that direct claim.
The event at the Temple probably resulted in Jesus' death; the charge I'm not sure of.
As for what NT scholars believe, I don't know. Crossan's Jesus gets crucified as a seeming accident...
Based on what we know from historical records, do you think Pilate would wring his hands over the life of one Jew?
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Originally posted by Gary View PostThe Digesta clearly states that the bodies of persons crucified for high treason typically were not handed over for proper burial. The onus is on you to prove that Jesus was...
...not executed for claiming to be the King of the Jews
and that,
...claiming to be the King of the Jews was not a form of treason.
Most NT scholars say you are wrong.
List the NT scholars you agree with. Then list the NT scholars you DON'T agree with. Then we, your readers, can verify if said scholars' statements are consist with your premise.Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette
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". . . Then said Pilate to the chief priests and [to] the people, I find no fault in this man. . . ." -- Luke 23:4.
". . . Take ye him, and crucify [him]: for I find no fault in him. . . ." -- John 19:6.
". . . title then read many of the Jews: for the place where Jesus was crucified was nigh to the city: and it was written in Hebrew, [and] Greek, [and] Latin. Then said the chief priests of the Jews to Pilate, Write not, The King of the Jews; but that he said, I am King of the Jews. Pilate answered, What I have written I have written. . . ." -- John 19:20-23.
Arguably what Pontius Pilate wrote was politically expedient to justify crucifying Him.Last edited by 37818; 05-14-2016, 04:14 PM.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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