Gary & Rhinestone's Thread on Burial and Resurrection of Christ

[JonathanL]

For some strange reason, alleged violations of natural laws almost always occur in remote, Third World locations, typically in highly superstitious cultures, and almost always involving persons of the lower, and even uneducated classes. Violations of natural laws do not occur in front of panels of neutral experts such as at the national convention of the American Medical Association.

Believers in miracles will find all sorts of convenient excuses for why the above observations are for the most part true, such as claiming that poor people in Third World countries have more "faith", but these are purely speculation. The fact of the matter is that most claims of natural law violations are made by people who have a limited understanding of science. So the same reasons that ignorant people all over the world for thousands of years believed that good harvests and famine were the consequences of a lack of or a sufficient quantity of faith in a particular invisible deity are used today to claim that invisible deities today perform medical healings: a lack of education in general or lack of understanding of a specialized field, such as medicine. Rare recoveries from disease do happen. Rarely, people who appear (to the uneducated) to be dead, are not, and their spontaneous recoveries are viewed by these same uninformed persons as the act of a supernatural being.

Famines, good harvests, disease, and recovery from disease are not controlled by invisible beings. They are controlled by the laws of nature. No matter how remarkable a medical recovery, believers in the supernatural have zero proof that these recoveries were just very rare natural recoveries that still occurred within the laws of nature. To claim that the recovery was due to the powers of a fairy, a leprechaun, or a god is pure wishful, superstitious thinking.

Hurr durr, these uneducated savages aren't as enlightened as us cultured westerners so of course they're going to be more superstitious than us. #BeingABigotForAtheism

[Gary]

Hurr durr, these uneducated savages aren't as enlightened as us cultured westerners so of course they're going to be more superstitious than us. #BeingABigotForAtheism

In all other areas of your life you follow the advice of persons educated in the "western" world view. Only when it comes to your superstitions, do you appeal to the beliefs of ancient middle-eastern, nomadic goat-herders.

[psstein]

For some strange reason, alleged violations of natural laws almost always occur in remote, Third World locations, typically in highly superstitious cultures, and almost always involving persons of the lower, and even uneducated classes. Violations of natural laws do not occur in front of panels of neutral experts such as at the national convention of the American Medical Association.

Believers in miracles will find all sorts of convenient excuses for why the above observations are for the most part true, such as claiming that poor people in Third World countries have more "faith", but these are purely speculation. The fact of the matter is that most claims of natural law violations are made by people who have a limited understanding of science. So the same reasons that ignorant people all over the world for thousands of years believed that good harvests and famine were the consequences of a lack of or a sufficient quantity of faith in a particular invisible deity are used today to claim that invisible deities today perform medical healings: a lack of education in general or lack of understanding of a specialized field, such as medicine. Rare recoveries from disease do happen. Rarely, people who appear (to the uneducated) to be dead, are not, and their spontaneous recoveries are viewed by these same uninformed persons as the act of a supernatural being.

Scientific research combined with cumulative human experience strongly indicates that famines, good harvests, disease, and recovery from disease are not controlled by invisible beings. They are controlled by the laws of nature. No matter how remarkable a medical recovery, believers in the supernatural have zero proof that these recoveries were not simply very rare natural recoveries that still occurred within the laws of nature. To claim that the recovery was due to the powers of a fairy, a leprechaun, or a god is pure wishful, superstitious thinking.

Look at how smart we are vs. people in the Third World. Look how dumb they are, they believe in miracles! Yuk yuk yuk. Your provincialism is sickening.

The idea that miracles are violations of natural law and can't happen doesn't make sense. Perhaps under a Newtonian view of the world, it did. However, if God exists, He made the natural order. There's nothing preventing God from intervening in the natural world when and where He sees fit.

[Adrift]

Hurr durr, these uneducated savages aren't as enlightened as us cultured westerners so of course they're going to be more superstitious than us. #BeingABigotForAtheism

Not to mention (again) the irony, hypocrisy, and plain asininity in maligning "highly superstitious cultures" for "a lack of education in general or lack of understanding of a specialized field, such as medicine" while he himself recommends and treats individuals with alternative "medicine" derived from the very same cultures.

How this guy ever received a professional doctoral degree I can't even begin to imagine. Have to say, it is pretty funny watching him routinely sawing off the branches he sits on.

[Gary]

When 10 people, considered respectable by the community, report such an extraordinary experience, the matter bears investigation, does it not? What happened that 10 different people report the same event? What precisely were each of them doing at the time they were supposedly taken aboard? What if the fact was it was not Martians as we imagined them, but something much closer to home (perhaps a secret base on the other side of the moon)? Perhaps an enclosed area where oxygen was available? That last part wouldn't be public knowledge maybe for decades, but if the 10 people did their due diligence and recorded what they had experienced, whoever heard or read them would be better prepared to deal with the truth when it comes out.. whatever the truth might be.

If you are curious, investigate the claim to see what really happened. Top candidates would be:

---the ten people are members of your town's tourism committee. Their claim was a calculated attempt to become the "UFO capital" of the United States.
---they were all at Bob's bar last night, drunk out of their minds, and this story is the result of their drunk conversation last night.

But if you are not curious, you do not need to bother investigating this claim. It didn't happen. It violates the laws of nature.

[Gary]

How do you reconcile this with your thread title, "The empty tomb is most likely not historical"? Have you changed your mind about the empty tomb not being historical? Or do you believe that "most NT scholars" are wrong on this issue?

I believe that the majority of NT scholars are Christians. I would also bet that the percentage of evangelical NT scholars now constitutes a significant percentage of Christian NT scholars. Many evangelical NT scholars work for evangelical colleges or universities who require them to sign a statement of faith in which they promise not to teach or promote any teaching which contradicts the doctrines and positions of their Christian denomination. The consequences of violating this agreement can be severe, as Mike Licona found out.

I therefore do not consider NT scholarly consensus on this issue very compelling evidence for the historicity of the Empty Tomb. I still doubt the historicity of the Empty Tomb, as does Bart Ehrman and other skeptic NT scholars, even though it is probably true that the majority of NT scholars do believe its historicity.

[Gary]

The answer is that he doesn't really care one way or the other. He's not interested in what actually happened, he's only interested in debunking Christianity. He'll argue anything if he thinks it furthers that goal. So, he's routinely flipflopped, straw-manned and moved goal posts on all sorts of subjects since he's been here. His motivation for posting is purely emotional, not rational.

Wrong as usual.

If I just wanted to debunk Christianity I would be a mythicist.

[Gary]

Look at how smart we are vs. people in the Third World. Look how dumb they are, they believe in miracles! Yuk yuk yuk. Your provincialism is sickening.

The idea that miracles are violations of natural law and can't happen doesn't make sense. Perhaps under a Newtonian view of the world, it did. However, if God exists, He made the natural order. There's nothing preventing God from intervening in the natural world when and where He sees fit.

You are absolutely correct, if a Creator God exists, there is nothing preventing this Creator God from intervening in the natural world when and where he sees fit. However, all evidence indicates that he/she/they/it have chosen NOT to intervene in the natural world but have ordained our universe to follow the inviolable laws of nature.

"Look at how smart we are vs. people in the Third World. Look how dumb they are, they believe in miracles! Yuk yuk yuk. Your provincialism is sickening."

Says the man who went to a western university and graduate program. Why didn't you obtain your schooling with a witch doctor in the jungles? Silly, silly, silly. You obtained your education in a western university because you believe in the veracity of western science and reason EXCEPT when it comes to your superstitions---then you want to appeal to the sage knowledge of the uneducated and superstitious of the non-western world.

[Gary]

Not to mention (again) the irony, hypocrisy, and plain asininity in maligning "highly superstitious cultures" for "a lack of education in general or lack of understanding of a specialized field, such as medicine" while he himself recommends and treats individuals with alternative "medicine" derived from the very same cultures.

How this guy ever received a professional doctoral degree I can't even begin to imagine. Have to say, it is pretty funny watching him routinely sawing off the branches he sits on.

Dear Readers: This is the typical pattern of fundamentalists: Attack the ex-cult member to distract from the massive holes in the cult's superstitious supernatural teachings. Watch this guy. As the evidence presented against his cult gets stronger, his rage and hatred for the "messenger" will intensify. His goal: Destroy the ex-cult member before the ex-cult member destroys his cult.

This man is full of hate and rage. There is NOTHING Jesus-like about him. You can feel his hate in his writings. Men like "Adrift" were first in line to light the kindling below the bonfire and stake to which his fellow supernaturalists tied millions of skeptics and dissenters to face a horrific, gruesome death...and enjoyed watching these people suffer. He is the epitome of what is evil about fundamentalist supernaturalist belief systems.

[DesertBerean]

If you are curious, investigate the claim to see what really happened. Top candidates would be:

---the ten people are members of your town's tourism committee. Their claim was a calculated attempt to become the "UFO capital" of the United States.
---they were all at Bob's bar last night, drunk out of their minds, and this story is the result of their drunk conversation last night.

But if you are not curious, you do not need to bother investigating this claim. It didn't happen. It violates the laws of nature.

Bwhahahaha. ...I suspected you weren't serious about delving into the ramifications of your proposed case study. Your attempt to poison the well proves it.

If one isn't curious, very well; one doesn't need to investigate it. But if it happens to be true, the consequences could be severe, and then no amount of saying "but it was impossible according to what we know!" Is going to help.

[Gary]

Bwhahahaha. ...I suspected you weren't serious about delving into the ramifications of your proposed case study. Your attempt to poison the well proves it.

If one isn't curious, very well; one doesn't need to investigate it. But if it happens to be true, the consequences could be severe, and then no amount of saying "but it was impossible according to what we know!" Is going to help.

There are tens of thousands of supernatural, laws-of-nature-defying claims in the world. Do you personally investigate each and every one of them to see if they are true or not? If not, why not?

[DesertBerean]

There are tens of thousands of supernatural, laws-of-nature-defying claims in the world. Do you personally investigate each and every one of them to see if they are true or not? If not, why not?

Evidently you did some investigating....you know there are tens of thousands of them.

[DesertBerean]

He insists on consensus by a modern panel....ok. He's gonna need a very, very special panel to provide consensus on his precious scenario of 10 people being abducted by Martians, because (1) we don't know if Martians beyond the microscopic level exist, and (2) we have no positive proof they *don't* exist on a level like or even above ours, never mind what form they might take. Let alone any other extra - planetary sentient life form.

He's not serious. That we have proof positive of. He doesn't take the trouble to read statements (or he doesn't want to, I don't know) carefully, and is quick to change his tactics when he gets into a hole he can't dig himself out of. His constant appeal to scholarship means very little.

[Gary]

He insists on consensus by a modern panel....ok. He's gonna need a very, very special panel to provide consensus on his precious scenario of 10 people being abducted by Martians, because (1) we don't know if Martians beyond the microscopic level exist, and (2) we have no positive proof they *don't* exist on a level like or even above ours, never mind what form they might take. Let alone any other extra - planetary sentient life form.

He's not serious. That we have proof positive of. He doesn't take the trouble to read statements (or he doesn't want to, I don't know) carefully, and is quick to change his tactics when he gets into a hole he can't dig himself out of. His constant appeal to scholarship means very little.

You are missing the point ENTIRELY!!!!

YOU do not investigate each and every one of the tens of thousands of supernatural claims in the world because to do so would consume your entire life! Even if you lived to be 100 years old, there would still be many tens of thousands of supernatural claims which you had not yet had the time to investigate thoroughly.

Therefore, like most people in the western world, you have eliminated from consideration 99% of all supernatural claims without investigating them. I have simply eliminated from serious consideration (serious investigation to the satisfaction of most believers of your supernatural claim) the ONE supernatural claim which you personally believe is absolute fact, without you having thoroughly investigated and ruled out the truth claims of the other 99%!

[DesertBerean]

Nope. You have NOT eliminated the empty tomb. He is risen.