Is the Ascension Story an Embellishment?

[The Pixie]

My only point is to try and understand the point and perspective of the author and his audience. To me this is worth my time and effort. An argument for or against some poorly defined idea of the supernatural totally misses the mark. Any god whose existence can be proved, disproven, or definitively doubted is not God. For Luke, God is known in the community and in the resurrected Christ who is at work in the community, in the Eucharist, and in history. He is real.

Do you think that before the crucifixion the disciples could prove Jesus existed? I would say yes, but from what you say here, this would suggest Jesus was not God. Can you clarify?

[robrecht]

Do you think that before the crucifixion the disciples could prove Jesus existed? I would say yes, but from what you say here, this would suggest Jesus was not God. Can you clarify?

Sure, but I don't think they could prove that Jesus was God. They came to believe this through his miracles, resurrection, and continued presence among the faithful, but did not develop any rational deductive proof that he was God.

[Gary]

My only point is to try and understand the point and perspective of the author and his audience. To me this is worth my time and effort. An argument for or against some poorly defined idea of the supernatural totally misses the mark. Any god whose existence can be proved, disproven, or definitively doubted is not God. For Luke, God is known in the community and in the resurrected Christ who is at work in the community, in the Eucharist, and in history. He is real.

So what if Luke believed his god was real! Sincere belief does not prove the belief is correct.

Muslims and Hindus sincerely and whole heartedly believe in their gods. That does NOT mean that their gods exist.

[Gary]

Dear Christians: Just because someone or even a group of people claim to have seen a dead person doesn't mean they did. And the "they wouldn't die for a lie" is a false dichotomy. If people had vivid dreams of Jesus then they sincerely believed they had seen him, but in reality, they had not. Besides that, we have zero proof that even one alleged witness to seeing the resurrected body (not a talking, bright light) of Jesus refused to recant this testimony to avoid martyrdom.

And guess what, people are still "seeing" the resurrected Jesus even today! I have a Christian commenting on my blog who swears that Jesus appeared to him in his backyard. Below are more examples of people who believe that they have seen the resurrected Jesus, even hundreds of people at one time! Bottom line: Just because very sincere people believe that they have seen a dead person does NOT mean they really have! Wake up, folks. It's just a tall tale.

http://www.joshuamediaministries.org...ce/testimonies

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2UpLmEjV5U

http://www1.cbn.com/700club/ron-zaucha-vision-jesus

Christian evangelist, Oral Roberts, saw a 900 foot tall Jesus:

http://www.truthmagazine.com/archive...GOT027075.html

Jesus is appearing to Muslims:

http://www.persecutionblog.com/2015/...us-christ.html

This Christian saw Jesus in a nursing home:

http://www.tbm.org/whatdoes.htm

Jesus appeared to this little boy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NuGKJNo_wyM

Jesus appears to woman to warn of national catastrophes in 2015:

http://beforeitsnews.com/prophecy/20...o-2469548.html

And the list goes on and on, my friends. I doubt you believe these claims. So why do you believe similar claims made by a small group of first century, superstitious, middle-eastern peasants??

[robrecht]

So what if Luke believed his god was real! Sincere belief does not prove the belief is correct.

Muslims and Hindus sincerely and whole heartedly believe in their gods. That does NOT mean that their gods exist.

Still, it is always better to understand the perspective of others. You asked me what my point was so I responded.

[Gary]

This young man (probably about the age of the disciples?) says that Jesus appeared to him in his bedroom. He says he "saw" Jesus with his very eyes walk across his floor (and on his ceiling). This man seems very sincere. Should we believe his story?

[Gary]

A long-haired Jesus appeared to this conservative Christian which I think really rattled him as his church told him that Jesus did not have long hair.

Did this man "see" Jesus in the same manner that the disciples "saw" Jesus???

[robrecht]

I think people's stories are generally more persuasive (or not) to those who know the people well. All of our experiences of God are limited by our own particular circumstances. As for my own belief, for me, it seems to be a kind of intuition, fed primarily by the example of love and service of others in the church, especially the experience of social ministry with the poor, and profound experiences in prayer, especially (but not only) in the celebration of the Eucharist, that leave me with a subjective certitude that seems to run very deep. I generally consider such experiences to be real when they challenge me to grow and become a better person, less limited by previous selfishness or other self-limitations.

[Gary]

Here Jesus appears to a Jew.

I could go on and on, folks. Do a search on youtube for "seeing Jesus" or "visions of Jesus" and you will see video after video of people living TODAY who believe that Jesus has appeared to them. Do you believe these stories? If not, then why do you believe the same claims made in anonymous first century books, allegedly made by uneducated peasants TWENTY CENTURIES ago??

Come on, guys! Don't be so gullible. These very sincere people are seeing things that aren't really there. It is a trick of the human mind and it happens ALL the time, even today!

Now, I will bet that Nick, Stein, and others will say that no Jew in first century Palestine would ever have a vision involving the concept as a Resurrected Messiah. But if you read the Gospels, that is what Jesus had been preaching for at least THREE YEARS! And if a few Jews in Asia Minor can search the Scriptures and find enough evidence in the OT to believe in a dying/resurrected Messiah, why should we be surprised that a small group of Jews in Judea and Galilee believed the same story?

And it seems that every one in first century Palestine was having visions: Zechariah, Mary, Joseph, Peter, Paul, Stephen, etc. etc. They were a superstitious people.

It is a superstitious, tall tale, folks. You have been deceived. Open your eyes, for goodness sake. Your belief in a resurrected Jesus is nor more true than the Tooth Fairy, the Easter Bunny, or Santa Claus.

[Gary]

I think people's stories are generally more persuasive (or not) to those who know the people well. All of our experiences of God are limited by our own particular circumstances. As for my own belief, for me, it seems to be a kind of intuition, fed primarily by the example of love and service of others in the church, especially the experience of social ministry with the poor, and profound experiences in prayer, especially (but not only) in the celebration of the Eucharist, that leave me with a subjective certitude that seems to run very deep. I generally consider such experiences to be real when they challenge me to grow and become a better person, less limited by previous selfishness or other self-limitations.

I'm happy that your very sincere beliefs make you a better person, but I think that the world as a whole would be better off without any superstitions, religious or otherwise. Look at the world today. The primary source of much of the violence in our world is the belief that "we are the servants of the one, true God" and everyone else is an evil infidel/sinner/non-chosen one.

[robrecht]

I'm happy that your very sincere beliefs make you a better person, but I think that the world as a whole would be better off without any superstitions, religious or otherwise. Look at the world today. The primary source of much of the violence in our world is the belief that "we are the servants of the one, true God" and everyone else is an evil infidel/sinner/non-chosen one.

I too do not accept superstition, religious or otherwise. Nor do I condone religious violence or bigotry.

[psstein]

Somebody wake me when Gary poses an actual argument.

I'm getting a bit tired of hearing "superstition" or "delusion." These are the marks of someone with nothing valuable to say.

[Gary]

I too do not accept superstition, religious or otherwise. Nor do I condone religious violence or bigotry.

-Do you believe that a divine ghost impregnated a human virgin to give birth to a god/man?
-Do you believe that a man walked on water?
-Do you believe that a man turned water into wine.
-Do you believe that a man cured blindness with mud mixed with spit?
-Do you believe that a man came back from the dead?
-Do you believe that a man ascended into the sky without any mechanical assistance?

If you say yes, to even one of these questions, then you believe in superstitions by definition of everyone living on the planet except the members of your own particular superstition-believing group who believe that these specific supernatural claims are historical reality.

[robrecht]

-Do you believe that a divine ghost impregnated a human virgin to give birth to a god/man?
-Do you believe that a man walked on water?
-Do you believe that a man turned water into wine.
-Do you believe that a man cured blindness with mud mixed with spit?
-Do you believe that a man came back from the dead?
-Do you believe that a man ascended into the sky without any mechanical assistance?

If you say yes, to even one of these questions, then you believe in superstitions by definition of everyone living on the planet except the members of your own particular superstition-believing group who believe that these specific supernatural claims are historical reality.

I think you have a different understanding of 'superstition' than the way it is normally defined.

Simple Definition of superstition: a belief or way of behaving that is based on fear of the unknown and faith in magic or luck : a belief that certain events or things will bring good or bad luck

Full Definition of superstition:
1 a: a belief or practice resulting from ignorance, fear of the unknown, trust in magic or chance, or a false conception of causation
1 b: an irrational abject attitude of mind toward the supernatural, nature, or God resulting from superstition

2:a notion maintained despite evidence to the contrary
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/superstition

I do believe in the resurrection and that Jesus performed healings, the first I believe to be a unique divine event, which I don't think we can define precisely, the others are in keeping with the practices and beliefs of the time and can be variously understood. I don't think we can get far behind the actual texts that we have, but it is certainly not irrational to realize that Jesus was considered by many to be a miracle worker, just as others were also considered miracle workers.

[Gary]

I think you have a different understanding of 'superstition' than the way it is normally defined.

Simple Definition of superstition: a belief or way of behaving that is based on fear of the unknown and faith in magic or luck : a belief that certain events or things will bring good or bad luck

Full Definition of superstition:
1 a: a belief or practice resulting from ignorance, fear of the unknown, trust in magic or chance, or a false conception of causation
1 b: an irrational abject attitude of mind toward the supernatural, nature, or God resulting from superstition

2:a notion maintained despite evidence to the contrary
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/superstition

I do believe in the resurrection and that Jesus performed healings, the first I believe to be a unique divine event, which I don't think we can define precisely, the others are in keeping with the practices and beliefs of the time and can be variously understood. I don't think we can get far behind the actual texts that we have, but it is certainly not irrational to realize that Jesus was considered by many to be a miracle worker, just as others were also considered miracle workers.

"faith in magic"

I couldn't have said it better myself.

Listen, guys. Nick and Stein can give you a list of scholars/experts a mile long but none of these experts will claim to be experts in the Supernatural/Miracles. That is what this entire debate boils down to: Did a supernatural event happen in circa 33 AD or not. Nick and Stein's scholars can give you expert opinion on the beliefs and actions of ancient peoples from that time period but they CANNOT give you any expert opinion on the reality or non-reality of any supernatural event.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A SCHOLAR OF THE SUPERNATURAL...except in Science Fiction movies.