Is ordination of women to be Pastors [Overseer/Bishop] orthodox?

[Teallaura]

Yeah, in the first place - this has no impact on me. I am not in a position where I will have to "fight" or "justify" either way, since my denomination (with whom I am in agreement) discourages female pastors - specifically as head of the local church.

It's just interesting to me that, in order to justify a female (let's say bishop, as that is the biblical term, and denotes THE leader of a local congregation or group of churches) one has to work pretty hard to minimize what might be prohibitions against, and search really hard for justifications "for".

From a PRACTICAL standpoint - and just being honest - the Churches that I have seen which are headed by a woman seem to be fairly week and quite liberal. I can't speak for everywhere in the Country, of course, but I have some pretty broad exposure with such Churches, having been the president of several ministerial associations throughout Texas, and one in Ohio.

It's generally the more liberal Churches that would call a woman as pastor, so you have to wonder what ELSE they allow.

As I said before, when I encounter female priests or pastors, I am always cordial to them, but I am pretty well convinced that's not the biblical model.

Here's an interesting article from SBC Life that explains our position.

*emphasis mine.

If you discourage women it's hardly surprising that you get a very skewed sample. I've seen male lead churches just as ridiculously left leaning - to the point of heresy.

The UMC doesn't have a large number of female elders, sadly, and many of those are up north where the denomination suffers from an influx of cultural ideology - which tells us lots of things about geography and ideology but little about the actual effect of femininity on the ordained ministry

[Cow Poke]

*emphasis mine.

If you discourage women it's hardly surprising that you get a very skewed sample.

I'm discouraging women?

I've seen male lead churches just as ridiculously left leaning - to the point of heresy.

Well, yeah, there's a lot more of them!

[Teallaura]

OK, I'm not as "up" on my OT as I should be --- I've been trying to find out where Deborah was "appointed by God" --- we find an indication of the OTHER 5 Judges of Israel that God "raised them up" to be Judges...

Othniel: "When the children of Israel cried out to the LORD, the LORD raised up a deliverer for the children of Israel, who delivered them: Othniel ..." (Judges 3:9).
Ehud: "And when the children of Israel cried out to the LORD, the LORD raised up a deliverer for them: Ehud ..." (Judges 3:15).
Gideon: "Then the Lord turned to him and said, "Go in this might of yours, and you shall save Israel from the hand to the Midianites. Have I not sent you?" (Judges 6:14).
Jephthah: "Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah ..." (Judges 11:29).
Samson: "And the Spirit of the LORD began to move upon him ..." (Judges 13:25). "And the Spirit of the LORD came mightily upon him ..." (Judges 14:6). Already before Samson's birth the Angel of the LORD told his parents that their son would deliver Israel out of the hand of the Philistines; Samson was an instrument of God.

Is there a solid indication that she was actually appointed by God to this position? (Not that that's crucial to the topic)

I'm not asking to start a fight -- I'm just curious.

Also, if I recall correctly, Deborah was the only Judge with no military function.

Um, Deborah went on a campaign with Barak.

[Cow Poke]

Um, Deborah went on a campaign with Barak.

Um, yes, she needed him for the military operation.

[Teallaura]

I'm discouraging women?

So you said.

since my denomination (with whom I am in agreement) discourages female pastors -

You (personal) indicate agreement with the policy - I think you (general) is perfectly correct.

Well, yeah, there's a lot more of them!

So we should have fewer men, then!

[Teallaura]

Um, yes, she needed him for the military operation.

Which tells us nothing - David didn't go on every campaign, now did he?

[Cow Poke]

Which tells us nothing - David didn't go on every campaign, now did he?

He commanded - delegated - he was clearly in charge.

Besides, it doesn't appear that Deborah was "appointed by God".

[Cow Poke]

So you said.

WHERE did I say that?

You (personal) indicate agreement with the policy - I think you (general) is perfectly correct.

You made it sound like I personally discouraged women --- I've never had to. That has never come up.

So we should have fewer men, then!

You just pick on people ALL the time ALWAYS picking fights EVERYWHERE, and ALL the time, without exception ALWAYS!

[Teallaura]

He commanded - delegated - he was clearly in charge.

Besides, it doesn't appear that Deborah was "appointed by God".

1) So what?
2) I didn't say she was. Scripture says she was judging over Israel, was a prophetess and demonstrates that she prophesies correctly multiple times. That seems unlikely if she is not acceptable to God as a judge of Israel.

[Teallaura]

WHERE did I say that?

Three posts up.

EDIT: http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post164958

You made it sound like I personally discouraged women --- I've never had to. That has never come up.

I find you very discouraging...



Serious answer: you can be personal or general. Quit assuming everything is about you!

You just pick on people ALL the time ALWAYS picking fights EVERYWHERE, and ALL the time, without exception ALWAYS!

You're just mad 'cause I'm cuter than you.

[Cow Poke]

You're just mad 'cause I'm cuter than you.

I'll give you that.

[37818]

Dude, those are not my views. I said that's what you get if you only go by a superficial reading in English. The examples I gave are common for people who just go in, read an English translation, and try to force their misunderstandings into problems.

Please accept my apology for misunderstanding what you intended, by quoting you out of context. My bad.

There's a lot of things in the Bible you just won't get at "face value", and lead to all kinds of unnecessary conflicts*, and general messiness. A lot of other things need to be taken into consideration, such as ancient Greek/Hebrew, and cultural considerations.

*Genesis 1 and 2 being "contradictory", Jephthah's daughter being a "human sacrifice", Elisha and the 42 "kids" etc. are just a few things that come to mind.

[Cow Poke]

1) So what?
2) I didn't say she was. Scripture says she was judging over Israel, was a prophetess and demonstrates that she prophesies correctly multiple times. That seems unlikely if she is not acceptable to God as a judge of Israel.

A) So what?
2) So what?
X) So what?





Seriously - that Deborah was a Judge of Israel is no proof at all that God wants women to pastor Churches.

[Cerebrum123]

Please accept my apology for misunderstanding what you intended, by quoting you out of context. My bad.

No problem. I've misread posts myself a few times.

[Cow Poke]

OK, going to bring up a very sensitive issue regarding this, and I'd appreciate everybody responding in an appropriate Christian manner.

ONE of the concerns - often unspoken - of conservative Christian leaders regarding female pastors is that it seems to be tied - either purposely or coincidentally - with the push to accept gay / lesbian lifestyles in the leadership of the Church.

I was hesitant to bring this up, because it was based on MY own experience with two female pastors - one who I know is a lesbian, and the other who I strongly suspect is a lesbian - among the maybe half a dozen female pastors I personally know.

I talked this morning to one of my Methodist pastor friends, and had lunch with one of my episcopal pastor friends - both on the more "conservative" end of their own denominations, albeit less conservative than myself.

I was specifically asking them about the "down side" of female pastors in their own denominations. The Methodist pastor actually listed the gay / lesbian issue without me prodding him. The Episcopal pastor acknowledged the problem after I specifically asked.

The rationale, apparently, is that it is the more liberal Churches who are moving to the "allow female pastors" mindset, so it's not a stretch to ask "does that pave the way for other 'more liberal' ideas and theologies". The answer from both of the men I talked to today was - yes, that's a serious concern. Our Church shares our building with a Lutheran Church whose pastor has, from time to time, a woman fill in for him when he's on vacation. I haven't had a chance to discuss this with him, but one of the reasons they broke away from the bigger Lutheran Church in town was because of so many liberal policies - specifically ordination of gays and lesbians.

So, I've been trying to figure out if there is a link - on purpose or coincidentally - between the acceptance of female pastors and the push for acceptance of gay / lesbian ministers. It seems there is such a movement, but some of the sources I found are not ---- how do we say --- they border on "hate sites", so I won't cite them.

However, I did find a source that seems to sum up the concerns I have had, and have heard, from conservative pastors:

Source: USCongregations.org

Breaking Barriers: Women Pastors May Be Paving Way for Gay, Lesbian Leaders

The long struggle for women to break the stained-glass ceiling in houses of worship may be easing the way for openly gay and lesbian leaders, new research indicates.

Congregations that allow women to be head clergy are nearly twice as likely to accept gays and lesbians as members.

And the odds of congregations being open to gays and lesbians as leaders are three times greater in congregations that permit women pastors than in congregations that do not allow women to be head clergy, researcher Andrew Whitehead found in analyzing data from the 2006-2007 National Congregations Study.

“Greater numbers of female clergy, or greater numbers of congregations that allow for women to be head clergy, could lead to a greater level of acceptance of gays and lesbians as members or leaders,” Whitehead writes in an article on “Gender, Homosexuality and Inequality Within Religious Congregations” in the Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion.

Close to half of all congregations in the 2006-2007 National Congregations Study allowed women to be head clergy, while 37 percent of congregations accepted gays and lesbians in committed relationships as members. Just 19 percent allowed gays and lesbians to be leaders.

Whitehead, director of the U.S. Congregational Life Survey, found a congregation’s openness to women pastors was significantly associated with its acceptance of gays and lesbians. The relationship remained significant even when taking into consideration factors such as religious tradition and theological conservatism.

© Copyright Original Source

I wonder what the thoughts are of those of you who seem to support females as pastors. PLEASE be polite - if you think this is just poppycock, I understand, but I'd like to have a civil discussion about this aspect of it.

Thanks