Is ordination of women to be Pastors [Overseer/Bishop] orthodox?

[Pentecost]

The A/G has been ordaining women from the beginning and after a hundred years we still don't allow practicing homosexuals into leadership roles. I can kinda see a connection there in practice for certain other denominations, but I have no idea why, just like I have no idea why gay "rights" is tied to socialism and gun rights are tied to capitalism, there is no intrinsic connection but for some reason there is an associated trend.

[KingsGambit]

CP, thanks for your candor in mentioning it. I have noticed the same thing, and in all honesty, it does make me a little uncomfortable, so it's definitely something that needs to be discussed. There is some validity to this observation. I don't think it's necessary, but it exists (I like Pentecost's analogy of how some things seem to go together like capitalism and gun rights even if they'd seem to have little in common.)

I used to frequent the Facebook group Christians for Biblical Equality, which is very large. I noticed a friend of mine (a conservative female pastor from Pennsylvania whose church is in the process of leaving PCUSA) was in the group, but not active, so I had hopes of some decent Bible-based discussion. I became disheartened that many group members did in fact advance arguments for homosexuality based on the "it's just one more piece of equality", and I was attacked for being a homophobe for disagreeing. Even though the CBE organization (which has many respected member) officially opposes homosexuality, the group leaders refused to hold the same standard, offering the rather lame excuse that they weren't technically affiliated with the group (despite sharing the name and prominently linking to it). I left the group as in any event it also seemed to be a rant page against men in general.

I know this passage doesn't refer to females in leadership, but I would argue that the Bible says "there is no male or female", but does not say even a scintilla of anything supporting homosexuality. At the very least, I think that should tell people honestly looking at the Bible that these are two entirely separate issues and that even if one were to come down as a complementarian, that women as a group are not in any way "treated" in the Bible as homosexuality is.

My personal theory is that the sort of people who are passionate about women's rights are often interested in "social justice" in general and it doesn't stop there. Obviously this doesn't apply to everyone (I was one of only two people in my seminary class who was willing to come out as being against homosexuality last week , and there are some otherwise conservative Bible scholars who are egalitarians), but in all honesty, a correlation does seem to exist.

[Truthseeker]

Why ESV?

I have the English Standard Version. Mossy said many months ago that she likes the ESV.

Why not?

[KingsGambit]

The A/G has been ordaining women from the beginning and after a hundred years we still don't allow practicing homosexuals into leadership roles. I can kinda see a connection there in practice for certain other denominations, but I have no idea why, just like I have no idea why gay "rights" is tied to socialism and gun rights are tied to capitalism, there is no intrinsic connection but for some reason there is an associated trend.

With the A/G, it makes sense that if there is a genuine sense that the Holy Spirit is prompting openness to women's ministry... and the denomination is solidly Bible-based enough that they wouldn't do something as obviously anti-scriptural as open up to homosexuality.

[Pentecost]

With the A/G, it makes sense that if there is a genuine sense that the Holy Spirit is prompting openness to women's ministry... and the denomination is solidly Bible-based enough that they wouldn't do something as obviously anti-scriptural as open up to homosexuality.

If I wasn't clear I was trying to convey that this isn't some new movement within the A/G, since 1935 we've ordained women.

I found a link where the A/G General Superintendent George O. Wood talked about the SBC position on female ordination and I think it's interesting. http://enrichmentjournal.ag.org/2001..._exploring.cfm

[Knowing Thomas]

I am on the fence on the position of female ordination.

I have had a female pastor at my church my entire life, which is part of the ECLA, an organization that has become increasingly leftwing. Despite this, I have no idea what her position is on sexual ethics or even politics.

The only indicators for me was when I brought up watching SNL in my confirmation class and she rolled her eyes with disgust (something I didn't understand then, but that I sure do now) and a few years ago that she was hosting some kind of discussion on the ECLA's ruling. What I do know is that if I have to move or if my pastor retires, I won't be attending an ECLA church ever again, which grieves me.

I guess the saving grace here is that hyper-liberal churches tend to siphon members like a Spanish galleon, unlike the traditional-minded ones they flock to.

[Cerealman]

If women were supposed to be head pastors or whatever, is there no evidence of it in ancient history?

[Jesse]

OK, going to bring up a very sensitive issue regarding this, and I'd appreciate everybody responding in an appropriate Christian manner.

ONE of the concerns - often unspoken - of conservative Christian leaders regarding female pastors is that it seems to be tied - either purposely or coincidentally - with the push to accept gay / lesbian lifestyles in the leadership of the Church.

I was hesitant to bring this up, because it was based on MY own experience with two female pastors - one who I know is a lesbian, and the other who I strongly suspect is a lesbian - among the maybe half a dozen female pastors I personally know.

I talked this morning to one of my Methodist pastor friends, and had lunch with one of my episcopal pastor friends - both on the more "conservative" end of their own denominations, albeit less conservative than myself.

I was specifically asking them about the "down side" of female pastors in their own denominations. The Methodist pastor actually listed the gay / lesbian issue without me prodding him. The Episcopal pastor acknowledged the problem after I specifically asked.

The rationale, apparently, is that it is the more liberal Churches who are moving to the "allow female pastors" mindset, so it's not a stretch to ask "does that pave the way for other 'more liberal' ideas and theologies". The answer from both of the men I talked to today was - yes, that's a serious concern. Our Church shares our building with a Lutheran Church whose pastor has, from time to time, a woman fill in for him when he's on vacation. I haven't had a chance to discuss this with him, but one of the reasons they broke away from the bigger Lutheran Church in town was because of so many liberal policies - specifically ordination of gays and lesbians.

So, I've been trying to figure out if there is a link - on purpose or coincidentally - between the acceptance of female pastors and the push for acceptance of gay / lesbian ministers. It seems there is such a movement, but some of the sources I found are not ---- how do we say --- they border on "hate sites", so I won't cite them.

However, I did find a source that seems to sum up the concerns I have had, and have heard, from conservative pastors:

Source: USCongregations.org

Breaking Barriers: Women Pastors May Be Paving Way for Gay, Lesbian Leaders

The long struggle for women to break the stained-glass ceiling in houses of worship may be easing the way for openly gay and lesbian leaders, new research indicates.

Congregations that allow women to be head clergy are nearly twice as likely to accept gays and lesbians as members.

And the odds of congregations being open to gays and lesbians as leaders are three times greater in congregations that permit women pastors than in congregations that do not allow women to be head clergy, researcher Andrew Whitehead found in analyzing data from the 2006-2007 National Congregations Study.

“Greater numbers of female clergy, or greater numbers of congregations that allow for women to be head clergy, could lead to a greater level of acceptance of gays and lesbians as members or leaders,” Whitehead writes in an article on “Gender, Homosexuality and Inequality Within Religious Congregations” in the Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion.

Close to half of all congregations in the 2006-2007 National Congregations Study allowed women to be head clergy, while 37 percent of congregations accepted gays and lesbians in committed relationships as members. Just 19 percent allowed gays and lesbians to be leaders.

Whitehead, director of the U.S. Congregational Life Survey, found a congregation’s openness to women pastors was significantly associated with its acceptance of gays and lesbians. The relationship remained significant even when taking into consideration factors such as religious tradition and theological conservatism.

© Copyright Original Source

I wonder what the thoughts are of those of you who seem to support females as pastors. PLEASE be polite - if you think this is just poppycock, I understand, but I'd like to have a civil discussion about this aspect of it.

Thanks

I understand the concern. And I don't think with the way American culture is headed, that it is an unfounded one. I have also heard this as the main reason for the push back. Having said that, I think it is unwise to ignore history because of it. The female "pastors" of the ANE are certainly not the ones of today. But the history of these women should not be overlooked. They were extremely important to the early body of Christ. If we are to debate women as pastors, I think the real debate lies in why they are even allowed to be pastors if it will cause a schism within the body. Man or woman, if their is serious concern about the person, they shouldn't be in a leadership role period. I hope I was polite in my response Cow Poke .

[Teallaura]

A) So what?
2) So what?
X) So what?





Seriously - that Deborah was a Judge of Israel is no proof at all that God wants women to pastor Churches.

You started it.

It is, however, good supporting evidence. A judge of Israel is unquestionably a leadership role - which brings into question the conclusion that women should never be leaders.

[Teallaura]

CP, thanks for your candor in mentioning it. I have noticed the same thing, and in all honesty, it does make me a little uncomfortable, so it's definitely something that needs to be discussed. There is some validity to this observation. I don't think it's necessary, but it exists (I like Pentecost's analogy of how some things seem to go together like capitalism and gun rights even if they'd seem to have little in common.)

I used to frequent the Facebook group Christians for Biblical Equality, which is very large. I noticed a friend of mine (a conservative female pastor from Pennsylvania whose church is in the process of leaving PCUSA) was in the group, but not active, so I had hopes of some decent Bible-based discussion. I became disheartened that many group members did in fact advance arguments for homosexuality based on the "it's just one more piece of equality", and I was attacked for being a homophobe for disagreeing. Even though the CBE organization (which has many respected member) officially opposes homosexuality, the group leaders refused to hold the same standard, offering the rather lame excuse that they weren't technically affiliated with the group (despite sharing the name and prominently linking to it). I left the group as in any event it also seemed to be a rant page against men in general.

I know this passage doesn't refer to females in leadership, but I would argue that the Bible says "there is no male or female", but does not say even a scintilla of anything supporting homosexuality. At the very least, I think that should tell people honestly looking at the Bible that these are two entirely separate issues and that even if one were to come down as a complementarian, that women as a group are not in any way "treated" in the Bible as homosexuality is.

My personal theory is that the sort of people who are passionate about women's rights are often interested in "social justice" in general and it doesn't stop there. Obviously this doesn't apply to everyone (I was one of only two people in my seminary class who was willing to come out as being against homosexuality last week , and there are some otherwise conservative Bible scholars who are egalitarians), but in all honesty, a correlation does seem to exist.

I think the biggest problem - and obstacle - is that too many people get 'ordination of women' and 'women's rights' confused. NO ONE - male or female - has a right to be ordained. Ordination is a calling, privilege, duty and ministry - it is not a right. Whether or not a woman may be ordained rests entirely in whether or not God, via Scripture, says so. In my opinion, Scripture supports female ordination. I know I haven't seriously engaged CP on this one - time being what it is and my present state of mind, I don't want to argue this too strongly - but the only passage that is truly problematic is the one in Timothy - and I think the case that Paul is referring to a specific person, not a general rule, is reasonable. On the whole, Scripture is incredibly egalitarian where women are concerned - it is strange to assume that it shifts direction on this one point.

But that is a long, painstaking argument and I'm not up for it right now. Maybe later this year.

[Cow Poke]

CP, thanks for your candor in mentioning it. I have noticed the same thing, and in all honesty, it does make me a little uncomfortable, so it's definitely something that needs to be discussed. There is some validity to this observation. I don't think it's necessary, but it exists (I like Pentecost's analogy of how some things seem to go together like capitalism and gun rights even if they'd seem to have little in common.)

I used to frequent the Facebook group Christians for Biblical Equality, which is very large. I noticed a friend of mine (a conservative female pastor from Pennsylvania whose church is in the process of leaving PCUSA) was in the group, but not active, so I had hopes of some decent Bible-based discussion. I became disheartened that many group members did in fact advance arguments for homosexuality based on the "it's just one more piece of equality", and I was attacked for being a homophobe for disagreeing. Even though the CBE organization (which has many respected member) officially opposes homosexuality, the group leaders refused to hold the same standard, offering the rather lame excuse that they weren't technically affiliated with the group (despite sharing the name and prominently linking to it). I left the group as in any event it also seemed to be a rant page against men in general.

I know this passage doesn't refer to females in leadership, but I would argue that the Bible says "there is no male or female", but does not say even a scintilla of anything supporting homosexuality. At the very least, I think that should tell people honestly looking at the Bible that these are two entirely separate issues and that even if one were to come down as a complementarian, that women as a group are not in any way "treated" in the Bible as homosexuality is.

My personal theory is that the sort of people who are passionate about women's rights are often interested in "social justice" in general and it doesn't stop there. Obviously this doesn't apply to everyone (I was one of only two people in my seminary class who was willing to come out as being against homosexuality last week , and there are some otherwise conservative Bible scholars who are egalitarians), but in all honesty, a correlation does seem to exist.

Thanks, KG - that's the kind of response for which I was hoping.

[Cow Poke]

I have the English Standard Version. Mossy said many months ago that she likes the ESV.

Why not?

That's a good version for reading. Not for study.

[Cow Poke]

I am on the fence on the position of female ordination.

I have had a female pastor at my church my entire life, which is part of the ECLA, an organization that has become increasingly leftwing. Despite this, I have no idea what her position is on sexual ethics or even politics.

The only indicators for me was when I brought up watching SNL in my confirmation class and she rolled her eyes with disgust (something I didn't understand then, but that I sure do now) and a few years ago that she was hosting some kind of discussion on the ECLA's ruling. What I do know is that if I have to move or if my pastor retires, I won't be attending an ECLA church ever again, which grieves me.

I guess the saving grace here is that hyper-liberal churches tend to siphon members like a Spanish galleon, unlike the traditional-minded ones they flock to.

I appreciate your honest response -- I'll be praying for you for direction "if and when".

[Cow Poke]

I hope I was polite in my response Cow Poke .

You usually are.

[Cow Poke]

You started it.

Did not.

It is, however, good supporting evidence. A judge of Israel is unquestionably a leadership role - which brings into question the conclusion that women should never be leaders.

Well, if anybody was posting a position that women should never be leaders, you MIGHT have a point!

(it's alright folks - she's my brother! )