Originally posted by 37818
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While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
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Forum Rules: Here
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
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Annihilationism, Nirvana and Atheism.
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Originally posted by Timothy View Post"And you did he make alive, when ye were dead..."
If "dead" doesn't mean "dead", but "alive" instead of "dead", then how did God make "alive" those who "were alive (dead)" If they are alive and not dead, then they can't be made alive.O Gladsome Light of the Holy Glory of the Immortal Father, Heavenly, Holy, Blessed Jesus Christ! Now that we have come to the setting of the sun and behold the light of evening, we praise God Father, Son and Holy Spirit. For meet it is at all times to worship Thee with voices of praise. O Son of God and Giver of Life, therefore all the world doth glorify Thee.
A neat video of dead languages!
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Originally posted by Timothy View Post"And you did he make alive, when ye were dead..."
If "dead" doesn't mean "dead", but "alive" instead of "dead", then how did God make "alive" those who "were alive (dead)" If they are alive and not dead, then they can't be made alive.
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Originally posted by Timothy View PostDo you agree that those who are dead in their trespasses and sins are not literally dead? So given that they are not literally dead, the passage uses the term "dead" in a figurative sense.Last edited by 37818; 12-10-2014, 02:13 PM.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostThat explains your view. Thanks. I unerstand Adam & Eve died spiritually that very day as in Genesis 2:17 & Genesis 3:6. The serpent having lied (Genesis 3:4; John 8:44), in effect murdering them..
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Originally posted by Kelp(p) View PostYou're conflating spiritual and physical death. If one can be suffering estrangement from God while they still exist, then why can't Hell be the same way? And remember, we agree that the mortality of the soul is irrelevant to the discussion.
If one can be suffering estrangement from God while they still exist, then why can't Hell be the same way?
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Originally posted by Timothy View PostNo, I am not "conflating spiritual and physical death". I read what the passage said, and I didn't add "spiritual death" to the passage. Did you know that the term "spiritual death" never occurs in the Bible? I know that "spiritual death" is very popular, it just isn't Biblical.
Spiritual death is moral estrangement from God. If you're going to take human depravity at all seriously you have to recognize this. Otherwise Adam and Eve would have ceased existing once they ate the fruit. And even if it is "just a metaphor," that still refutes your insistence on interpreting the second death as literal cessation of existence.
Originally posted by Timothy View PostBecause Jesus said that the body and soul would be destroyed in hell.
Think about this way. Christ says not to fear those that can destroy the body. But what do we fear when we fear death at the hands of our fellow man? If someone strangles me, my body is still there. If I get cremated, say, my body will just sit in the funeral home until that happens. After that, if you really want to get pedantic, my ashes will still be here too.
I'm not afraid of getting cremated because I won't be in this body for the sensation. All I fear is the initial death by strangling.
Even looking at in terms of the tradition of exegesis, annihlationism loses. Your side has Arnobius and maybe St. Justin Martyr. I have every other Church Father. Annihlationism is almost as alien to Christianity as hyperpreterism is. That doesn't prove anything, true. But it does give one great pause.Last edited by Kelp(p); 12-11-2014, 07:52 AM.O Gladsome Light of the Holy Glory of the Immortal Father, Heavenly, Holy, Blessed Jesus Christ! Now that we have come to the setting of the sun and behold the light of evening, we praise God Father, Son and Holy Spirit. For meet it is at all times to worship Thee with voices of praise. O Son of God and Giver of Life, therefore all the world doth glorify Thee.
A neat video of dead languages!
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Originally posted by Timothy View PostI don't see any evidence in the Bible that Adam and Eve died the day of the first sin. According to Genesis 5:5, Adam died much later. There is no mention of Adam dying (in any way) before that. I have heard a lot of people say to me that Adam died "spiritually" that same day, but nobody has shown me where the Bible says that they died spiritually that day.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Don't give me that fundamentalist "if the exact word isn't in the Bible, then I don't believe in it," crap.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostThat is not an honest statement. Fundamentalists are Tinitarian for example.
It is true that not all Fundamentalists reject all terms outside the Bible. It is an intellectual phenomenon that occurs among fundamentalists, though. Here's a salient example I found the other day. To his credit the author doesn't straight up say that he rejects the term because it is not found in the Bible, he merely implies it. http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False...ble_church.htm This guy obviously would not accept the concept of the church invisible unless one showed him a verse saying, "There is an invisible church."O Gladsome Light of the Holy Glory of the Immortal Father, Heavenly, Holy, Blessed Jesus Christ! Now that we have come to the setting of the sun and behold the light of evening, we praise God Father, Son and Holy Spirit. For meet it is at all times to worship Thee with voices of praise. O Son of God and Giver of Life, therefore all the world doth glorify Thee.
A neat video of dead languages!
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Originally posted by Kelp(p) View PostSome are and when they are they are often so inconsistently. Fundamentalism is not merely (and I would argue, hardly at all anymore) "the adherence to the 1910 document called The Fundamentals." The word has evolved (in the context of Christianity, at least) to denote a kind of anti-intellectual Biblical hyperliteralism that rejects all reference to outside scholarship as being antithetical to faith.
It is true that not all Fundamentalists reject all terms outside the Bible. It is an intellectual phenomenon that occurs among fundamentalists, though. Here's a salient example I found the other day. To his credit the author doesn't straight up say that he rejects the term because it is not found in the Bible, he merely implies it. http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False...ble_church.htm This guy obviously would not accept the concept of the church invisible unless one showed him a verse saying, "There is an invisible church."
You still committed an ad hominem attack.
I'm also fundamentalist when it comes to the Bible.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by Timothy View PostNo, I am not "conflating spiritual and physical death". I read what the passage said, and I didn't add "spiritual death" to the passage. Did you know that the term "spiritual death" never occurs in the Bible? I know that "spiritual death" is very popular, it just isn't Biblical.
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Originally posted by 37818 View Post"An hypocrite with [his] mouth destroyeth his neighbour: . . ." -- Proverbs 11:9.
You still committed an ad hominem attack.
An ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"), short for argumentum ad hominem, means responding to arguments by attacking a person's character, rather than to the content of their arguments.
Originally posted by 37818 View PostI'm also fundamentalist when it comes to the Bible.
If it's in the new sense, then get that Latin out of your signature and quit with the godless study of logic (I'm only half kidding).O Gladsome Light of the Holy Glory of the Immortal Father, Heavenly, Holy, Blessed Jesus Christ! Now that we have come to the setting of the sun and behold the light of evening, we praise God Father, Son and Holy Spirit. For meet it is at all times to worship Thee with voices of praise. O Son of God and Giver of Life, therefore all the world doth glorify Thee.
A neat video of dead languages!
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Originally posted by Kelp(p) View PostDon't give me that fundamentalist "if the exact word isn't in the Bible, then I don't believe in it," crap. You're smarter than that.
Spiritual death is moral estrangement from God. If you're going to take human depravity at all seriously you have to recognize this. Otherwise Adam and Eve would have ceased existing once they ate the fruit. And even if it is "just a metaphor," that still refutes your insistence on interpreting the second death as literal cessation of existence.
That doesn't refute my point. You've not provided a concrete reason for either insisting that there is only one kind of death in Scripture or for interpreting death of the soul literally here (I could also invoke Colossians 3:3 for either side, I reckon). If the damned are bodily thrown into the lake of fire and then preserved there by God to suffer, then the final death of the body is also metaphorical in way.
Think about this way. Christ says not to fear those that can destroy the body. But what do we fear when we fear death at the hands of our fellow man? If someone strangles me, my body is still there. If I get cremated, say, my body will just sit in the funeral home until that happens. After that, if you really want to get pedantic, my ashes will still be here too.
I'm not afraid of getting cremated because I won't be in this body for the sensation. All I fear is the initial death by strangling.
Even looking at in terms of the tradition of exegesis, annihlationism loses. Your side has Arnobius and maybe St. Justin Martyr. I have every other Church Father. Annihlationism is almost as alien to Christianity as hyperpreterism is. That doesn't prove anything, true. But it does give one great pause.
Annihilationism says that the wicked will be destroyed and will be no more. If that is alien to the Bible, then the Bible is alien to the Bible.
Here's the thing, The Bible actually says that the wicked will be destroyed and the wicked will be no more, but the Bible NEVER says that the wicked will go to hell when they die where they will be tormented alive forever. And it is not true that you have "every church father" on your side. That is absolutely false. Irenaeus said that the wicked will have a discontinuance of existence. Also the rest of the Church Fathers quote the Bible, and your side has the unfortunate tendency to read eternal conscious torment into everything. If the church fathers quote Matthew 25:46, your side counts it as proof that the CFs believe in eternal conscious torment, even though Matt 25:46 doesn't say eternal torment, it says eternal punishment.
And you say that Jesus' statement that the body and soul will be destroyed in hell doesn't prove your your point wrong that the wicked can exist in hell. Jesus said that they are destroyed, that proves that they are destroyed and proves your point wrong that they are not destroyed.
You haven't got a biblical leg to stand on for eternal conscious torment in hell.
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Originally posted by Anthropos View PostDo you believe it's unbiblical to speak of "physical death" too?
Do you think that it is wrong to believe what the Bible says instead of traditions?
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