// Required code

Announcement

Collapse

Theology 201 Guidelines

This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.

Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Annihilationism, Nirvana and Atheism.

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Annihilationism, Nirvana and Atheism.

    If the lost are ultimately annihilated then one view of the Buddhist's Nirvana will be for the Buddhist, and the view of the Atheist will be ultimately true, where there being a God not believed as a reality didn't change anything expected. After annihilation, one isn't going to know anything. Nothing at all.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  • #2
    I'm not sure any Buddhist would say Nirvana is exactly like complete annihilation. It's a lot more subtle than that.

    And no, I don't think any of the damned would be getting what they want under annihlationism. Most atheists I've seen would be happy if there was an afterlife, so they'll go out very disappointed or kicking themselves that they didn't believe. I tend to think that those of the, "If there was a god, I'd spit in his eye," variety will also come to realize the reasons why God is just and good. They'd go out sad, too.
    O Gladsome Light of the Holy Glory of the Immortal Father, Heavenly, Holy, Blessed Jesus Christ! Now that we have come to the setting of the sun and behold the light of evening, we praise God Father, Son and Holy Spirit. For meet it is at all times to worship Thee with voices of praise. O Son of God and Giver of Life, therefore all the world doth glorify Thee.

    A neat video of dead languages!

    Comment


    • #3
      Annihilationism isn't just a nice passing into nothingness. Annihilationists generally hold that it is a painful process, probably with literal fire and burning, and that people suffer in proportion to what their deeds were on Earth.
      "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
        Annihilationism isn't just a nice passing into nothingness. Annihilationists generally hold that it is a painful process, probably with literal fire and burning, and that people suffer in proportion to what their deeds were on Earth.
        If the lake of fire is literal, then why would its smoke go up forever after the last person in it ceases to exist? And how can anybody stand a literal giant pit of fire for more than a couple of seconds max?

        I thought Annihilationism's big appeal is that it's cosmic euthanasia. This sounds like God is almost as big a torturer as He is under the classic view of Hell as literal.
        Last edited by Kelp(p); 11-24-2014, 03:52 PM.
        O Gladsome Light of the Holy Glory of the Immortal Father, Heavenly, Holy, Blessed Jesus Christ! Now that we have come to the setting of the sun and behold the light of evening, we praise God Father, Son and Holy Spirit. For meet it is at all times to worship Thee with voices of praise. O Son of God and Giver of Life, therefore all the world doth glorify Thee.

        A neat video of dead languages!

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Kelp(p) View Post
          If the lake of fire is literal, then why would its smoke go up forever after the last person in it ceases to exist? And how can anybody stand the a literal pit of fire for more than a couple of seconds max?

          I thought Annihilationism's big appeal is that it's cosmic euthanasia. This sounds like God is almost as big a torturer as He is under the classic view of Hell as literal.
          The smoke going up forever is a figure of speech about permanent destruction. There's a reference in Jude 1:27, where it seems to claim that the smoke is still burning today from Sodom and Gomorrah, but the literal point being made is complete and total destruction.

          As for the other question... I honestly don't know. Perhaps God sustains for as long as necessary.
          "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
            Perhaps God sustains for as long as necessary.
            Ewwww, that's like a reversal of the three men in the Babylonian furnace. I'm wary of a theology that results in creepy "parodies" of Biblical miracles (I say the same thing to Futurists who claim that the antichrist is part of a false trinity, will have a false resurrection, and a false incarnation. Just...no). Also, it still makes God kind of torturous.

            Two more questions that occurred to me. If "their worm dies not," then is God sustaining the worms as long as it takes, as well? Why go through that extra trouble?

            Also, how do you burn an angel to death?
            Last edited by Kelp(p); 11-24-2014, 04:05 PM.
            O Gladsome Light of the Holy Glory of the Immortal Father, Heavenly, Holy, Blessed Jesus Christ! Now that we have come to the setting of the sun and behold the light of evening, we praise God Father, Son and Holy Spirit. For meet it is at all times to worship Thee with voices of praise. O Son of God and Giver of Life, therefore all the world doth glorify Thee.

            A neat video of dead languages!

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Kelp(p) View Post
              Ewwww, that's like a reversal of the three men in the Babylonian furnace. I'm wary of a theology that results in creepy "parodies" of Biblical miracles. Also, it still makes God kind of torturous.

              Two more question that occurred to me. If "their worm dies not," then is God sustaining the worms as long as it takes, as well? Why go through that extra trouble?

              Also, how do you burn an angel to death?
              Just to be clear, that was just one speculation about a possibility. I just kind of came up with it now, not trying to be dogmatic (so much of the language about the eschaton is somewhat figurative so I'm not very dogmatic about specifics).

              I have no idea how destruction patterns work, esp. with angels, but what matters to me is that God has the power to destroy them (as he does with humans per Matthew 10:28).

              The thing about Jesus' statement about worms dying not is probably worth a separate thread in and of itself. It comes from a reference to Isaiah 66, which is a vivid picture of God's enemies being slain, so it's not really a statement about immortal worms or anything of that nature.
              "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

              Comment


              • #8
                Ok, but Christianbookworm will be sad to know she's not fireproof. :p

                Also, a miraculous fire that kills angels seems like a rather strange and ad hoc invention for God to make just for the occasion.
                O Gladsome Light of the Holy Glory of the Immortal Father, Heavenly, Holy, Blessed Jesus Christ! Now that we have come to the setting of the sun and behold the light of evening, we praise God Father, Son and Holy Spirit. For meet it is at all times to worship Thee with voices of praise. O Son of God and Giver of Life, therefore all the world doth glorify Thee.

                A neat video of dead languages!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Kelp(p) View Post
                  Ewwww, that's like a reversal of the three men in the Babylonian furnace. I'm wary of a theology that results in creepy "parodies" of Biblical miracles (I say the same thing to Futurists who claim that the antichrist is part of a false trinity, will have a false resurrection, and a false incarnation. Just...no). Also, it still makes God kind of torturous.

                  Two more questions that occurred to me. If "their worm dies not," then is God sustaining the worms as long as it takes, as well? Why go through that extra trouble?

                  Also, how do you burn an angel to death?
                  This is only one interpretation. Since there are two different analogies for hell one might suspect that they are not literal in that sense.
                  Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                    This is only one interpretation. Since there are two different analogies for hell one might suspect that they are not literal in that sense.
                    I know. I believe that if there is an eternal Hell, then it's a place of spiritual pain and isolation.

                    I was critiquing KingsGambit's suggestion that there is a literal lake of fire that annihilates those thrown into it.
                    O Gladsome Light of the Holy Glory of the Immortal Father, Heavenly, Holy, Blessed Jesus Christ! Now that we have come to the setting of the sun and behold the light of evening, we praise God Father, Son and Holy Spirit. For meet it is at all times to worship Thee with voices of praise. O Son of God and Giver of Life, therefore all the world doth glorify Thee.

                    A neat video of dead languages!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I believe in a literal Hell, but the Bible compares it to the Lake of Fire and to the outer darkness. I suspect there is something I don't know. That is why I don't often take strong positions on peripheral details.
                      Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        If the death of the soul is annihilation (Ezekiel 18:4; 2 Thessalonians 1:9; Romans 5:8; Isaiah 53:10, 12). Then what I like explained is our Savior's annihilation on the cross (John 19:28, 30 i.e. paid in full.) and bodily resurrection.
                        . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

                        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

                        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                          If the death of the soul is annihilation (Ezekiel 18:4; 2 Thessalonians 1:9; Romans 5:8; Isaiah 53:10, 12). Then what I like explained is our Savior's annihilation on the cross (John 19:28, 30 i.e. paid in full.) and bodily resurrection.
                          This is, if anything, an argument for annihilationism. Orthodox Christianity does, in fact, hold that Jesus died on the cross as opposed to undergoing eternal torment. The penalty was paid with death.
                          "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                            If the lost are ultimately annihilated then one view of the Buddhist's Nirvana will be for the Buddhist, and the view of the Atheist will be ultimately true, where there being a God not believed as a reality didn't change anything expected. After annihilation, one isn't going to know anything. Nothing at all.
                            If the lost are ultimately annihilated, the saved who receive eternal life will still be saved and will still inherit eternal life, just as Jesus Christ said. It's true that a person who has been annihilated isn't going to know anything at all. That's what happens when a person is destroyed, just as the Bible says. If the lost are ultimately annihilated, the view of the Bible-Believing-Christian who believes that the wages of sin is death will be ultimately true. However, if the lost are eternally tormented alive forever in hell, then the Bible is wrong to claim that the wages of sin is death. If the lost are eternally tormented in hell forever, then the Pagan Greeks got it correct, and Jesus Christ, Paul and all the Apostles and Prophets got it wrong.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Kelp(p) View Post
                              If the lake of fire is literal, then why would its smoke go up forever after the last person in it ceases to exist? And how can anybody stand a literal giant pit of fire for more than a couple of seconds max?

                              I thought Annihilationism's big appeal is that it's cosmic euthanasia. This sounds like God is almost as big a torturer as He is under the classic view of Hell as literal.
                              To me, Annihilation's "big appeal" is that it agrees with what the Bible teaches. The Bible says that the wicked will be destroyed. Does this sound closer to "The wicked will be destroyed" as Annihilationism teaches or is it closer to "the wicked will NOT be destroyed but they will be tortured alive forever in hell" as those who believe in Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT) in Hell wrongly teach?

                              Comment

                              Related Threads

                              Collapse

                              Topics Statistics Last Post
                              Started by FarEastBird, 09-02-2020, 11:39 AM
                              83 responses
                              566 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post footwasher  
                              Started by lee_merrill, 06-29-2020, 06:29 PM
                              141 responses
                              2,165 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post thormas
                              by thormas
                               
                              Started by Esther, 08-30-2019, 12:42 PM
                              72 responses
                              11,028 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post footwasher  
                              Working...
                              X