Annihilationism, Nirvana and Atheism.

[Timothy]

I have done so. And you simply choose not to accept them. And with little to no explanation.

No, You haven't. If you had really shown me a verse that says that dead souls suffer an eternity in hell, I would have remembered it. Also, if you really had shown me a verse that says that dead souls suffer an eternity in hell, you would have posted it again just to show me up, rather than just claiming that you already showed it. There is not a single verse in the entire bible that says that wicked souls go to hell when they die where they suffer for all of eternity. But there are dozens of verses in the Bible that say that the wicked will perish. I don't know why you don't accept them as true.

[Anthropos]

My primary verses are the classic universalist texts of 1 Timothy 4:10 which speaks of Christ being the savior of all men and 1 Corinthians 15:25-27 in which God is said to unite all things to Himself. I just don't find the alternate explanations of these verses very convincing.

Beyond that, I just appeal to logic. If some will be eternally in Hell, then either God has completely given up on them and no longer knocks on their heart urging them to repent, which I don't think is possible given His love. Or there are some beings that can outlast or overcome God by their free will.

Kelp, I appreciate you sharing your main reasons for embracing Christian universalism.

Three years ago I was a hopeful universalist, and spent much of time reading books and listening to lectures by Christian universalists in hopes that I could accept their interpretation of Scripture to be based upon what I would view as good hermeneutics (the kind that's good regardless if we're interpreting a Pauline epistle or any other literature).

I remain a traditionalist (metaphorical view), because none of the people I studied from met the criteria for what I would consider good hermeneutics. I do at times struggle with the traditional view of hell, but when I do it's not over my overall interpretation of Scripture in this area, but over the credibility of Scripture itself in teaching us truth from God. What helps me to continue standing in faith when I do struggle in this area, is being reminded of what I believe to be Jesus' view of Scripture, and what I believe he taught of continuing to teach us through his church after the Holy Spirit was sent.

We may not agree on this, but I personally don't think our differences on this should divide us in Christian fellowship. For although beliefs matter, not all beliefs matter equally.

Btw, one of the books I read when I was considering universalism is, Universal Salvation?: The Current Debate. It's really good for examining different perspectives on this. Have you read it? If so, what did you think about it?

[37818]

No, You haven't. If you had really shown me a verse that says that dead souls suffer an eternity in hell, I would have remembered it. Also, if you really had shown me a verse that says that dead souls suffer an eternity in hell, you would have posted it again just to show me up, rather than just claiming that you already showed it. There is not a single verse in the entire bible that says that wicked souls go to hell when they die where they suffer for all of eternity. But there are dozens of verses in the Bible that say that the wicked will perish. I don't know why you don't accept them as true.

Maybe not all in this thread.

I had cited Revelation 14:

". . . the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. And they have no rest day or night, . . ." -- Revelation 14:11.

you dismissed the smoke, but ignored "no rest" day or night.

And you did not answer my questions. But repeat your claim which has nothing to do with hell. I addressed on such claim you made:

Psalm 37:10 In just a little while, the wicked will be no more; though you look carefully at his place, he will not be there. True or False?

True. [v.9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.]

The wicked will be gone from the earth. Hence no more. That does not say they will cease being in hell for all eternity.

Do you not understand? We are not understanding the same Bible texts the same way. You have not or refuse to explain how you come to your meaning of death, destruction and perishing. I have given mine. Do I need to repeat it?

[Kelp(p)]

Kelp, I appreciate you sharing your main reasons for embracing Christian universalism.

Three years ago I was a hopeful universalist, and spent much of time reading books and listening to lectures by Christian universalists in hopes that I could accept their interpretation of Scripture to be based upon what I would view as good hermeneutics (the kind that's good regardless if we're interpreting a Pauline epistle or any other literature).

I remain a traditionalist (metaphorical view), because none of the people I studied from met the criteria for what I would consider good hermeneutics. I do at times struggle with the traditional view of hell, but when I do it's not over my overall interpretation of Scripture in this area, but over the credibility of Scripture itself in teaching us truth from God. What helps me to continue standing in faith when I do struggle in this area, is being reminded of what I believe to be Jesus' view of Scripture, and what I believe he taught of continuing to teach us through his church after the Holy Spirit was sent.

We may not agree on this, but I personally don't think our differences on this should divide us in Christian fellowship. For although beliefs matter, not all beliefs matter equally.

Btw, one of the books I read when I was considering universalism is, Universal Salvation?: The Current Debate. It's really good for examining different perspectives on this. Have you read it? If so, what did you think about it?

I've not read it. I might pick it sometime. Thanks!

And I agree that it should not be something to divide churches.

[JohnnyP]

Maybe not all in this thread.

I had cited Revelation 14:
you dismissed the smoke, but ignored "no rest" day or night.

And you did not answer my questions. But repeat your claim which has nothing to do with hell. I addressed on such claim you made:

The wicked will be gone from the earth. Hence no more. That does not say they will cease being in hell for all eternity.

Do you not understand? We are not understanding the same Bible texts the same way. You have not or refuse to explain how you come to your meaning of death, destruction and perishing. I have given mine. Do I need to repeat it?

At that point Judgment has not come yet, they'd be like the Rich Man in a temporary Hell before Judgment and the Lake of Fire:

Source: KJV

Luke 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

© Copyright Original Source

[37818]

At that point Judgment has not come yet, they'd be like the Rich Man in a temporary Hell before Judgment and the Lake of Fire:

Source: KJV

Luke 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

© Copyright Original Source

Well, we agree on this. And you do make your views understandable. Thanks.

[Timothy]

Maybe not all in this thread.

I had cited Revelation 14:
you dismissed the smoke, but ignored "no rest" day or night.

And you did not answer my questions. But repeat your claim which has nothing to do with hell. I addressed on such claim you made:

The wicked will be gone from the earth. Hence no more. That does not say they will cease being in hell for all eternity.

Do you not understand? We are not understanding the same Bible texts the same way. You have not or refuse to explain how you come to your meaning of death, destruction and perishing. I have given mine. Do I need to repeat it?

I agree, we are not understanding the Bible texts the same way.
I use the normal understanding of the meaning of death, destruction and perishing when I read the Bible. I believe that is how the Bible was meant to be read.

[37818]

I agree, we are not understanding the Bible texts the same way.
I use the normal understanding of the meaning of death, destruction and perishing when I read the Bible. I believe that is how the Bible was meant to be read.

So you think. I did a definitive study using just KJV and Strong's concordance of the second death 46 years ago. I have done other studies since.

So I do not believe you really know what you think you know on this. I can explain, as you have seen, the very reasons I believe what I do.

[Timothy]

According to the Bible the wages of sin is death, not eternal conscious torment.

[hedrick]

I agree, we are not understanding the Bible texts the same way.
I use the normal understanding of the meaning of death, destruction and perishing when I read the Bible. I believe that is how the Bible was meant to be read.

It would be nice to have the unambiguous testimony not be in a book that is so obviously symbolic. The smoke going up forever has a basis in prophetic imagery. None of the places that are described that way are literally still smoking. e.g. Is 34:10. Does this kind of imagery suddenly turn literal in the second half of the verse?

[Timothy]

It would be nice to have the unambiguous testimony not be in a book that is so obviously symbolic. The smoke going up forever has a basis in prophetic imagery. None of the places that are described that way are literally still smoking. e.g. Is 34:10. Does this kind of imagery suddenly turn literal in the second half of the verse?

No, I don't think it is wise to take the obviously symbolic book of Revelation and use ONE (1) verse from it to overturn hundreds of plain passages from the WORD OF GOD that say that the unrepentant will be destroyed, they will perish and they will be no more. But that is what Mr 37818 wants to do. And Why Would Anyone Do This??? Tradition, tradition! Tradition!

[37818]

No, I don't think it is wise to take the obviously symbolic book of Revelation and use ONE (1) verse from it to overturn hundreds of plain passages from the WORD OF GOD that say that the unrepentant will be destroyed, they will perish and they will be no more. But that is what Mr 37818 wants to do. And Why Would Anyone Do This??? Tradition, tradition! Tradition!

You are wrong, even if you are right. How so? Why are they tormented at all? And then how long? Where does it say that torment comes to an end? Hay, the wages of sin is death, not eternal suffering according to you. So Why the torment at all? How long? Where does it say it comes to an end?

[hedrick]

The images used by Jesus seem to involve both punishment and destruction. I'm not convinced that they involve eternal torment.

outer darkness
The background is intertestamental ,e.g. Ps Solomon 4:6
"Therefore their inheritance is Sheol and darkness and destruction,
And they shall not be found in the day when the righteous obtain mercy;"
This is destruction, not eternal punishment

furnance of fire
The background is Dan 3:6, where Dan and his friends were supposed to have been killed

hell where the worm never dieds
The background is Is 66:24, where what never dies is the worm eating their dead bodies

The pictures are punishment and destruction. These seem to be used interchangeably. If you want to take them literally, you could say that evildoers are punished and then destroyed. However one suspects that these are different ways of describing the same thing.

[Timothy]

You are wrong, even if you are right. How so? Why are they tormented at all? And then how long? Where does it say that torment comes to an end? Hay, the wages of sin is death, not eternal suffering according to you. So Why the torment at all? How long? Where does it say it comes to an end?

Jesus said that their body and soul would be destroyed. Jesus said that they would perish and would not have eternal life. Paul said that the wages of sin is death. Peter said that they will be destroyed. Jude said that they share the fate of Sodom which was destroyed. James said that sin leads to death. Ezekiel said that the soul who sins shall die. David said that the wicked would perish and WOULD BE NO MORE.

I can go on and on. Why aren't you believing all of these Godly Witnesses? Don't you believe that there is symbolism in the Book of Revelation? Don't you believe the rest of the Bible?

[37818]

Jesus said that their body and soul would be destroyed. Jesus said that they would perish and would not have eternal life. Paul said that the wages of sin is death. Peter said that they will be destroyed. Jude said that they share the fate of Sodom which was destroyed. James said that sin leads to death. Ezekiel said that the soul who sins shall die. David said that the wicked would perish and WOULD BE NO MORE.

Here is where you are wrong. How so? NONE of these truths are at issue. I'm not denying them. I just understand then, not as you would like me to. Here is your problem: You do not explain why there is any suffering at all. Since they are dead. ". . . to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever," makes no sense. They're dead! ". . . outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth," makes no sense. Jesus' words makes no sense where He says, ". . . Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell . . ." There should be no suffering at all. Yet, ". . . there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth!" Your view does not explain this, nor for how long. Hay, the dead are dead, are they not?

I can go on and on. Why aren't you believing all of these Godly Witnesses? Don't you believe that there is symbolism in the Book of Revelation? Don't you believe the rest of the Bible?

The symbolism of revelation is explained. And even so, there are disagreements on this book. What is yet future, its real historical past. Explain the symbolism of "the smoke of their torment." And why that is or will not be literal. In your view, death is death. So why is there any torment at all? And if there is, where is it explained to be temporal? You have explained nothing except death is death. I'm waiting.