Originally posted by 37818
View Post
Announcement
Collapse
Theology 201 Guidelines
This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less
Annihilationism, Nirvana and Atheism.
Collapse
X
-
-
Originally posted by Kelp(p) View PostMy primary verses are the classic universalist texts of 1 Timothy 4:10 which speaks of Christ being the savior of all men and 1 Corinthians 15:25-27 in which God is said to unite all things to Himself. I just don't find the alternate explanations of these verses very convincing.
Beyond that, I just appeal to logic. If some will be eternally in Hell, then either God has completely given up on them and no longer knocks on their heart urging them to repent, which I don't think is possible given His love. Or there are some beings that can outlast or overcome God by their free will.
Three years ago I was a hopeful universalist, and spent much of time reading books and listening to lectures by Christian universalists in hopes that I could accept their interpretation of Scripture to be based upon what I would view as good hermeneutics (the kind that's good regardless if we're interpreting a Pauline epistle or any other literature).
I remain a traditionalist (metaphorical view), because none of the people I studied from met the criteria for what I would consider good hermeneutics. I do at times struggle with the traditional view of hell, but when I do it's not over my overall interpretation of Scripture in this area, but over the credibility of Scripture itself in teaching us truth from God. What helps me to continue standing in faith when I do struggle in this area, is being reminded of what I believe to be Jesus' view of Scripture, and what I believe he taught of continuing to teach us through his church after the Holy Spirit was sent.
We may not agree on this, but I personally don't think our differences on this should divide us in Christian fellowship. For although beliefs matter, not all beliefs matter equally.
Btw, one of the books I read when I was considering universalism is, Universal Salvation?: The Current Debate. It's really good for examining different perspectives on this. Have you read it? If so, what did you think about it?
Comment
-
Originally posted by Timothy View PostNo, You haven't. If you had really shown me a verse that says that dead souls suffer an eternity in hell, I would have remembered it. Also, if you really had shown me a verse that says that dead souls suffer an eternity in hell, you would have posted it again just to show me up, rather than just claiming that you already showed it. There is not a single verse in the entire bible that says that wicked souls go to hell when they die where they suffer for all of eternity. But there are dozens of verses in the Bible that say that the wicked will perish. I don't know why you don't accept them as true.
I had cited Revelation 14:Originally posted by 37818 View Post". . . the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. And they have no rest day or night, . . ." -- Revelation 14:11.
And you did not answer my questions. But repeat your claim which has nothing to do with hell. I addressed on such claim you made:Originally posted by 37818 View PostPsalm 37:10 In just a little while, the wicked will be no more; though you look carefully at his place, he will not be there. True or False?
Do you not understand? We are not understanding the same Bible texts the same way. You have not or refuse to explain how you come to your meaning of death, destruction and perishing. I have given mine. Do I need to repeat it?Last edited by 37818; 12-03-2014, 09:05 PM.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
Comment
-
Originally posted by Anthropos View PostKelp, I appreciate you sharing your main reasons for embracing Christian universalism.
Three years ago I was a hopeful universalist, and spent much of time reading books and listening to lectures by Christian universalists in hopes that I could accept their interpretation of Scripture to be based upon what I would view as good hermeneutics (the kind that's good regardless if we're interpreting a Pauline epistle or any other literature).
I remain a traditionalist (metaphorical view), because none of the people I studied from met the criteria for what I would consider good hermeneutics. I do at times struggle with the traditional view of hell, but when I do it's not over my overall interpretation of Scripture in this area, but over the credibility of Scripture itself in teaching us truth from God. What helps me to continue standing in faith when I do struggle in this area, is being reminded of what I believe to be Jesus' view of Scripture, and what I believe he taught of continuing to teach us through his church after the Holy Spirit was sent.
We may not agree on this, but I personally don't think our differences on this should divide us in Christian fellowship. For although beliefs matter, not all beliefs matter equally.
Btw, one of the books I read when I was considering universalism is, Universal Salvation?: The Current Debate. It's really good for examining different perspectives on this. Have you read it? If so, what did you think about it?
And I agree that it should not be something to divide churches.O Gladsome Light of the Holy Glory of the Immortal Father, Heavenly, Holy, Blessed Jesus Christ! Now that we have come to the setting of the sun and behold the light of evening, we praise God Father, Son and Holy Spirit. For meet it is at all times to worship Thee with voices of praise. O Son of God and Giver of Life, therefore all the world doth glorify Thee.
A neat video of dead languages!
Comment
-
Originally posted by 37818 View PostMaybe not all in this thread.
I had cited Revelation 14:
you dismissed the smoke, but ignored "no rest" day or night.
And you did not answer my questions. But repeat your claim which has nothing to do with hell. I addressed on such claim you made:
The wicked will be gone from the earth. Hence no more. That does not say they will cease being in hell for all eternity.
Do you not understand? We are not understanding the same Bible texts the same way. You have not or refuse to explain how you come to your meaning of death, destruction and perishing. I have given mine. Do I need to repeat it?
Comment
-
Originally posted by JohnnyP View PostAt that point Judgment has not come yet, they'd be like the Rich Man in a temporary Hell before Judgment and the Lake of Fire:
. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
Comment
-
Originally posted by 37818 View PostMaybe not all in this thread.
I had cited Revelation 14:
you dismissed the smoke, but ignored "no rest" day or night.
And you did not answer my questions. But repeat your claim which has nothing to do with hell. I addressed on such claim you made:
The wicked will be gone from the earth. Hence no more. That does not say they will cease being in hell for all eternity.
Do you not understand? We are not understanding the same Bible texts the same way. You have not or refuse to explain how you come to your meaning of death, destruction and perishing. I have given mine. Do I need to repeat it?
I use the normal understanding of the meaning of death, destruction and perishing when I read the Bible. I believe that is how the Bible was meant to be read.
Comment
-
Originally posted by Timothy View PostI agree, we are not understanding the Bible texts the same way.
I use the normal understanding of the meaning of death, destruction and perishing when I read the Bible. I believe that is how the Bible was meant to be read.
So I do not believe you really know what you think you know on this. I can explain, as you have seen, the very reasons I believe what I do.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
Comment
-
Originally posted by Timothy View PostI agree, we are not understanding the Bible texts the same way.
I use the normal understanding of the meaning of death, destruction and perishing when I read the Bible. I believe that is how the Bible was meant to be read.Last edited by hedrick; 12-05-2014, 08:38 AM.
Comment
-
Originally posted by hedrick View PostIt would be nice to have the unambiguous testimony not be in a book that is so obviously symbolic. The smoke going up forever has a basis in prophetic imagery. None of the places that are described that way are literally still smoking. e.g. Is 34:10. Does this kind of imagery suddenly turn literal in the second half of the verse?
Comment
-
Originally posted by Timothy View PostNo, I don't think it is wise to take the obviously symbolic book of Revelation and use ONE (1) verse from it to overturn hundreds of plain passages from the WORD OF GOD that say that the unrepentant will be destroyed, they will perish and they will be no more. But that is what Mr 37818 wants to do. And Why Would Anyone Do This??? Tradition, tradition! Tradition!. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
Comment
-
The images used by Jesus seem to involve both punishment and destruction. I'm not convinced that they involve eternal torment.
outer darkness
The background is intertestamental ,e.g. Ps Solomon 4:6
"Therefore their inheritance is Sheol and darkness and destruction,
And they shall not be found in the day when the righteous obtain mercy;"
This is destruction, not eternal punishment
furnance of fire
The background is Dan 3:6, where Dan and his friends were supposed to have been killed
hell where the worm never dieds
The background is Is 66:24, where what never dies is the worm eating their dead bodies
The pictures are punishment and destruction. These seem to be used interchangeably. If you want to take them literally, you could say that evildoers are punished and then destroyed. However one suspects that these are different ways of describing the same thing.
Comment
-
Originally posted by 37818 View PostYou are wrong, even if you are right. How so? Why are they tormented at all? And then how long? Where does it say that torment comes to an end? Hay, the wages of sin is death, not eternal suffering according to you. So Why the torment at all? How long? Where does it say it comes to an end?
I can go on and on. Why aren't you believing all of these Godly Witnesses? Don't you believe that there is symbolism in the Book of Revelation? Don't you believe the rest of the Bible?Last edited by Timothy; 12-05-2014, 06:36 PM.
Comment
-
Originally posted by Timothy View PostJesus said that their body and soul would be destroyed. Jesus said that they would perish and would not have eternal life. Paul said that the wages of sin is death. Peter said that they will be destroyed. Jude said that they share the fate of Sodom which was destroyed. James said that sin leads to death. Ezekiel said that the soul who sins shall die. David said that the wicked would perish and WOULD BE NO MORE.
I can go on and on. Why aren't you believing all of these Godly Witnesses? Don't you believe that there is symbolism in the Book of Revelation? Don't you believe the rest of the Bible?Last edited by 37818; 12-05-2014, 08:34 PM.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
Comment
widgetinstance 221 (Related Threads) skipped due to lack of content & hide_module_if_empty option.
Comment