God's Love and Allowing Evil

[Sparko]

It is close in meaning to "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God"


.

δικαιουμενοι	vb: prs mid.psv ptcpl nom masc pl	(‡ ones) are getting (?) justified
δωρεαν 1	advb	gratuitously　 (dir obj)
		are getting freely justified
τη	def art: τη - dtv fem sgl	the (+ ind obj)
αυτου	✧ pers prnn: gtv masc.neut sgl ✧ advb	of? him・it
χαριτι	τη noun: dtv fem sgl	‡+ 　 grace (indr obj)
		in (by?) his grace
δια	prpstn: acc, gtv	by・through
της	def art της : gtv, fem, sgl	of? 　the
απολυτρωσεως	της noun: gtv fem sgl	of? ‡ 　 redemption
της	def art της : gtv, fem, sgl	of? 　the
		through the redemption that is
εν 1	prpstn: dtv	in
χριστω	τω.noun: dtv masc sgl	‡+ 　 anointed　(ind obj)
ιησου	τω.του noun: dtv.gtv masc sgl	to? of? Jesus・Joshua (name)
		in (by?) Christ Jesus

You still are not answering me.

Grace is undeserved favor. Grace is "why." The righteousness being imputed to us is "how", being saved is the "what"

basically we are saved, undeservedly, by God imputing his righteousness onto us and that is how our sins are forgiven. He no longer sees our sins, but his righteousness when we stand before him.

[footwasher]

They were born again just as Abraham was. The law was for wicked Jews placed under threat of death according to Paul. “Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;” 1 Timothy 1:9–10 (KJV 1900)

Fine, so the law was made for the wicked. But who are the wicked? According to the text, everyone!


Rom 3.9What then? [h]Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; 10as it is written:


“THERE IS NO RIGHTEOUS PERSON, NOT EVEN ONE;


11THERE IS NO ONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,


THERE IS NO ONE WHO SEEKS OUT GOD;


12THEY HAVE ALL TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME [i]CORRUPT;


THERE IS NO ONE WHO DOES GOOD,


THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”


13“THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE,


WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,”


“THE VENOM OF [j]ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS”;


14“THEIR MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS”;


15“THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,


16DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,


17AND THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN THE WAY OF PEACE.”


18“THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES.”


Now think about this. There are two groups of people, under Torah.


There are those who believe that fasting and tithing make them children of Abraham, which in turn makes them entitled to have the privilege of becoming blessings to the world.


Then there is another group, who read Torah, and believe that fasting and tithing are necessary, but also justice, mercy and loving God should not be neglected.


According to both John the Forerunner, and Jesus, it is the latter group which goes home justified, escapes God's wrath! How is it possible, since by works of the law no one is ever justified.


That's the answer. The latter group is NOT justified by works. Who can meet the requirements of the conscience, much less Torah?


So how did God justify the last group? By loyalty! They believed God's word. The first group did NOT believe God's word. They were like Adam. Did God really say that those who do not do ALL the law will be cursed?


Deuteronomy 27.26‘Cursed is anyone who does not fulfill the words of this Law by doing them.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Amen.’


No exception given there.


So the Remnant, who tithed and fasted, and did not neglect the weightier requirements of the Law, justice, mercy and loving God went home justified not because they managed to fulfil all thise requirements, but because even though they were under law and works, God applied grace and it's requirements, loyalty, to save them:


Rom 11.5In the same way, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6And if it is by grace, then it is no longer by works. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace.c

[footwasher]

You still are not answering me.

Grace is undeserved favor. Grace is "why." The righteousness being imputed to us is "how", being saved is the "what"

basically we are saved, undeservedly, by God imputing his righteousness onto us and that is how our sins are forgiven. He no longer sees our sins, but his righteousness when we stand before him.

Sparko, you seem to think that the Covenant of Grace has no requirements. It does, and that requirement is faith, loyalty. The cross created a legacy, an inheritance, and that inheritance is the New Covenant, a real blessing, because it's yoke is light.

Imagine, James is applying Deuteronomy 27 26, but it isn't a curse now. All the believers have to do is to be loyal to Jesus's teaching: not to be partial to rich people.

[Dave L]

Fine, so the law was made for the wicked. But who are the wicked? According to the text, everyone!


Rom 3.9What then? [h]Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; 10as it is written:


“THERE IS NO RIGHTEOUS PERSON, NOT EVEN ONE;


11THERE IS NO ONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,


THERE IS NO ONE WHO SEEKS OUT GOD;


12THEY HAVE ALL TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME [i]CORRUPT;


THERE IS NO ONE WHO DOES GOOD,


THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”


13“THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE,


WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,”


“THE VENOM OF [j]ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS”;


14“THEIR MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS”;


15“THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,


16DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,


17AND THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN THE WAY OF PEACE.”


18“THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES.”


Now think about this. There are two groups of people, under Torah.


There are those who believe that fasting and tithing make them children of Abraham, which in turn makes them entitled to have the privilege of becoming blessings to the world.


Then there is another group, who read Torah, and believe that fasting and tithing are necessary, but also justice, mercy and loving God should not be neglected.


According to both John the Forerunner, and Jesus, it is the latter group which goes home justified, escapes God's wrath! How is it possible, since by works of the law no one is ever justified.


That's the answer. The latter group is NOT justified by works. Who can meet the requirements of the conscience, much less Torah?


So how did God justify the last group? By loyalty! They believed God's word. The first group did NOT believe God's word. They were like Adam. Did God really say that those who do not do ALL the law will be cursed?


Deuteronomy 27.26‘Cursed is anyone who does not fulfill the words of this Law by doing them.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Amen.’


No exception given there.


So the Remnant, who tithed and fasted, and did not neglect the weightier requirements of the Law, justice, mercy and loving God went home justified not because they managed to fulfil all thise requirements, but because even though they were under law and works, God applied grace and it's requirements, loyalty, to save them:


Rom 11.5In the same way, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6And if it is by grace, then it is no longer by works. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace.c

The law cannot save. God does this instead; “A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.” Ezekiel 36:26 (KJV 1900)

[tabibito]

Jesus' teachings and requirements are indeed the primary guide, yes.

Oh - among them is "go and sin no more."

Scripture Verse:

Ezekiel 36:27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.

© Copyright Original Source

is part of that same passage though

[Sparko]

Sparko, you seem to think that the Covenant of Grace has no requirements. It does, and that requirement is faith, loyalty. The cross created a legacy, an inheritance, and that inheritance is the New Covenant, a real blessing, because it's yoke is light.

Imagine, James is applying Deuteronomy 27 26, but it isn't a curse now. All the believers have to do is to be loyal to Jesus's teaching: not to be partial to rich people.

I never said there were no requirements. Obviously Romans 3 says that the righteousness of God was given to those who believed in Jesus. Are you just arguing with me to argue? We seem to be agreeing on this, but your posts are a bit hard to follow. Rather than just coming out and saying something you seem to just post a lot of verses and then say see?

[footwasher]

The law cannot save. God does this instead; “A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.” Ezekiel 36:26 (KJV 1900)

The Publican in the Temple was under law, yet he was justified. How is it possible?

It's possible because he felt the curse, the failure to do ALL the Law. Otherwise what made him humble?

So because he believed God's word, Deut 27.26, God used grace instead of law, faith instead of loyalty, to judge him.

The Pharisee refused to believe Deut 27.26. Otherwise how could he be happy, satisfied that he was compliant? Obviously, only by misinterpretation of the Law, disbelief.

In other words, the condition of a person rightly believing God, being loyal to him, is guilt, sorrow, humility:


Luke 18.10“Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
11“The Pharisee was standing and praying like this about himself:fn ‘God, I thank you that I’m not like other people  — greedy, unrighteous, adulterers, or even like this tax collector.
12“I fast twice a week; I give a tenthfn of everything I get.’
13“But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even raise his eyes to heaven but kept striking his chest and saying, ‘God, have mercy on me,fn a sinner! ’
14“I tell you, this one went down to his house justified rather than the other; because everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”

Dave, don't look for the simple answers. The text gives outlines, because the writers were there to explain, fill out the outlines. We must see where the writers have done this explanation in other places.

[Dave L]

The Publican in the Temple was under law, yet he was justified. How is it possible?

It's possible because he felt the curse, the failure to do ALL the Law. Otherwise what made him humble?

So because he believed God's word, Deut 27.26, God used grace instead of law, faith instead of loyalty to judge him.

The Pharisee refused to believe Deut 27.26. Otherwise how could he be happy, satisfied that he was compliant? Obviously, only by misinterpretation of the Law, disbelief.

In other words, the condition of a person rightly believing God, being loyal to him, is guilt, sorrow, humility:


Luke 18.10“Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
11“The Pharisee was standing and praying like this about himself:fn ‘God, I thank you that I’m not like other people  — greedy, unrighteous, adulterers, or even like this tax collector.
12“I fast twice a week; I give a tenthfn of everything I get.’
13“But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even raise his eyes to heaven but kept striking his chest and saying, ‘God, have mercy on me,fn a sinner! ’
14“I tell you, this one went down to his house justified rather than the other; because everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”

Dave, don't look for the simple answers. The text gives outlines, because the writers were there to explain, fill out the outlines. We must see where the writers have done this explanation in other places.

There were born-again people at the time. He was obviously born-again. The Pharisees obviously were not. Get a hold of this principle. It makes scripture much more understandable.

[footwasher]

I never said there were no requirements. Obviously Romans 3 says that the righteousness of God was given to those who believed in Jesus. Are you just arguing with me to argue? We seem to be agreeing on this, but your posts are a bit hard to follow. Rather than just coming out and saying something you seem to just post a lot of verses and then say see?

You said grace is undeserved favour, implying that under the covenant of grace, no response is required.

No! Under grace, God expects loyalty!

In Romans 3, it's not righteousness which is given. It is a verdict of righteousness which is given, quite a different thing, to those who are loyal to Christ.

See in Rom 1 and 2, everybody is under law, in the form of Torah for the Jews and in the form of the dictates of the conscience, for the Gentile. Both parties are never able to meet the righteous requirements.

But now, apart from these WORKS requirements, impossible to meet because God requires perfection (ask anybody if they ever have a satisfued conscience), a new, easy, requirement has been given as a blessing to God's People: loyalty, to Christ. To which God will give a righteous verdict.

[footwasher]

There were born-again people at the time. He was obviously born-again. The Pharisees obviously were not. Get a hold of this principle. It makes scripture much more understandable.

Wrong. That is eisegesis. The text does not say he was justified because he was born again. It says he was justified because he was sorrowful, humiliated: by his inability to meet the works requirements of the law. He was justified by grace, God using loyalty as a criteria, his agreeing with God's word, meeting the loyalty requirements of the Grace principle, and it is grace, because otherwise, grace wouldn't be grace.

[Dave L]

Wrong. That is eisegesis. The text does not say he was justified because he was born again. It says he was justified because he was sorrowful, humiliated: by his inability to meet the works requirements of the law. He was justified by grace, God using loyalty as a criteria, his agreeing with God's word, meeting the loyalty requirements of the Grace principle, and it is grace, because otherwise, grace wouldn't be grace.

He was humbled by his sin = born-again. The Pharisees were not = cocky and lost like many today.

[Sparko]

You said grace is undeserved favour, implying that under the covenant of grace, no response is required.

No! Under grace, God expects loyalty!

In Romans 3, it's not righteousness which is given. It is a verdict of righteousness which is given, quite a different thing, to those who are loyal to Christ.

See in Rom 1 and 2, everybody is under law, in the form of Torah for the Jews and in the form of the dictates of the conscience, for the Gentile. Both parties are never able to meet the righteous requirements.

But now, apart from these WORKS requirements, impossible to meet because God requires perfection (ask anybody if they ever have a satisfued conscience), a new, easy, requirement has been given as a blessing to God's People: loyalty, to Christ. To which God will give a righteous verdict.

It is undeserved in the sense that God doesn't OWE us any salvation. We are sinners. If he were to punish us that would be entirely just. Yet instead, he gives us his favor and allows those who have faith and follow him as our Lord (as you said, loyalty) to cover our sins with his righteousness and be forgiven and saved and have eternal life.

Faith is not a "work". It is a choice. Picking sides.

[footwasher]

He was humbled by his sin = born-again. The Pharisees were not = cocky and lost like many today.

[Dave L]

Actually, the way to be born again is to remember God's great works. See, when you hear with faith, God does great works among you. Now you have to remember these great works, not be like Israel, or Chorazin and Bethesda, who forgot those great works (see, there is repetitions of these lessons!). Now ground that drinks from the rain and produces vegetation (Heb 4) is blessed by God. Ground that does not us only fit to be burned. Didn't Israel strew the wilderness with their bones? But Caleb, because he drank from the Rock and profited from it (Heb 6, 1Cor 10) he had a different spirit, meta noia-ed, wrongly translated as repent, but meaning changed his mindset, changed from being a fearful follower to a courageous leader, like Abraham, and God allowed him to enter Rest:

Num 14.24

Only God can make a person born-again. And only then can they believe at a spiritual level. You cannot cause your new birth any more than you caused your natural birth.

[footwasher]

It is undeserved in the sense that God doesn't OWE us any salvation. We are sinners. If he were to punish us that would be entirely just. Yet instead, he gives us his favor and allows those who have faith and follow him as our Lord (as you said, loyalty) to cover our sins with his righteousness and be forgiven and saved and have eternal life.

Faith is not a "work". It is a choice. Picking sides.

No! Under the Covenant of Grace, God rewards loyalty with the giving of the Holy Spirit, with recognition that you have become a member of His household, privy to partaking of the powers of the ages to come ((Heb 6). Your show of loyalty isn't given a COVER of righteousness. It IS a righteous act!

Faith is a work, in the sense it is something we do, show loyalty. Of course, it is lip service, unconfirmed, only words, such as swearing loyalty to a suzerain king, and as James said, confirmed, perfected by external action. These are real world scenarios.

James has no conflict with Paul.