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God's Love and Allowing Evil

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  • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

    But those who believed God's word, observed ALL the Law, were the survivors. God said He had kept aside 7000 survivors. They were carried away to Babylon. The others died.

    If God had not kept the survivors, Israel would have disappeared. They lived in Babylon, and became numerous, and returned from Exile, to form the nation again. Even today, because there are Jews who believe God's word, to observe all the law, are living. That's why Israel has not disappeared.

    When the correct number of Gentiles are converted, then Israel will see Jesus miraculously, like Paul saw Him on the Damascus road, and all Israel will be converted.

    See Romans 9.27-29.
    What you don't understand is. Most were wicked beyond belief and the Law killed them if necessary. Only a few were born again with the Two Great Commandments written in their hearts.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

      What you don't understand is. Most were wicked beyond belief and the Law killed them if necessary. Only a few were born again with the Two Great Commandments written in their hearts.
      Show Scripture.

      The text actually says the ordo salutis is:

      Hear the true Gospel with belief, receive the faith strengthening ministry (the witnessing of miracles, like the Exodus multitude, like Chorazin and Bethesda) of the Holy Spirit.

      Hear the Holy Spirit with faith (drink from the Rock, produce vegetation), become perfected (be born again). Like Caleb. Don't be like the rest of Israel, who did not keep God's great works in their hearts, but kept thinking like people who were never fed rain from heaven:

      Acts 19.1Now it happened that while Apollos was in Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples. 2He said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said to him, “On the contrary, we have not even heard if there is a Holy Spirit.” 3And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” And they said, “Into John’s baptism.” 4Paul said, “John baptized with a baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5When they heard this, they were baptized [a]in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6And when Paul had laid hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.

      Gal 3.2This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by works of [b]the Law, or by hearing [c]with faith? 3Are you so foolish? Having begun [d]by the Spirit, are you now [e]being perfected by the flesh? 4Did you [f]suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works [g]miracles among you, do it by works of [h]the Law, or by hearing [i]with faith?

      Num 14.20So the LORD said, “I have forgiven them in accordance with your word; 21however, as I live, [k]all the earth will be filled with the glory of the LORD. 22Certainly all the people who have seen My glory and My signs which I performed in Egypt and in the wilderness, yet have put Me to the test these ten times and have not listened to My voice, 23shall by no means see the land which I swore to their fathers, nor shall any of those who were disrespectful to Me see it. 24But as for My servant Caleb, because he has had a different spirit and has followed Me fully, I will bring him into the land which he [l]entered, and his [m]descendants shall take possession of it.

      Heb 6.7For ground that drinks the rain which often [g]falls on it and produces vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and [h]close to being cursed, and [i]it ends up being burned.

      Since those not born again cannot be in Rest, in the Kingdom, they cannot through the finger of God do great works, pick up crosses and be lifted up from the earth. Cannot take on the enemy, sins in their lives, like Caleb and Joshua took on the Amorites, and defeat them.

      For these people, the Law is required, to be a curse, to show them the need for a Deliverer, to keep revealing their sins to them, because that is what the Law does best:

      1 Tim 1.8But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, 9realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and worldly, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10for the [f]sexually immoral, homosexuals, [g]slave traders, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, 11according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.

      In other words, the law is for those who are rebellious, who have rejected the Gospel.

      Obviously, a person can't start being saved unless he hears the correct Gospel.

      What Gospel did you hear?
      Last edited by footwasher; 07-30-2021, 08:22 PM.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
        Maybe Paul got it wrong early in his ministry and had to correct the error later, or maybe Luke misquoted him, or maybe there were special impositions on some that did not apply generally:
        Paul (Acts 26:20) I preached to those in Damascus first, and to those in Jerusalem and in all the region of Judea, and to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works worthy of repentance.


        Scripture translation can be unhelpful if you stick to literalism. Repentance can mean so many things. Obviously Paul doesn't mean Jesus taught the same things John the Baptist taught. Even John said the crowd had to return to God by following the Mosaic law, resulting in surviving the wrath, but to move forward, when Jesus announced the arrival of the Kingdom, resulting in becoming blessings to the world, through being able to pick up crosses, being lifted up, and being a light to guide people to God, the fulfillment of the promise to Abraham:

        Acts 19.1Now it happened that while Apollos was in Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples. 2He said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said to him, “On the contrary, we have not even heard if there is a Holy Spirit.” 3And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” And they said, “Into John’s baptism.” 4Paul said, “John baptized with a baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5When they heard this, they were baptized [a]in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6And when Paul had laid hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying. 7There were about twelve men in all.
        ...

        Acts 26.20
        Aramaic Bible in Plain English
        “But from the first I preached to those in Darmsuq, and to those in Jerusalem and those in all the villages of Judea, and I preached also to the Gentiles that they repent (stop sinning in continuing to be ignorant of the Gospel) and be converted to God and to do deeds worthy of a return to God.”

        Contemporary English Version
        First I preached to the people in Damascus, and then I went to Jerusalem and all over Judea. Finally, I went to the Gentiles and said, "Stop sinning (being unaware of the Gospel) and turn to God! Then prove what you have done by the way you live.

        In other words, according to Scripture, sinning is not knowing what the Gospel is!

        Which, according to Scripture, is the coming of the Kingdom amongst men:

        1 Cor 15.1Now I make known to you, brothers and sisters, the gospel which I preached to you, which you also received, in which you also stand, 2by which you also are saved, if you hold firmly to [a]the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

        3For I handed down to you [b]as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that He appeared to [c]Cephas, then to the twelve. 6After that He appeared to more than five hundred brothers and sisters at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; 7then He appeared to [d]James, then to all the apostles; 8and last of all, as [e]to one untimely born, He appeared to me also.
        Last edited by footwasher; 07-30-2021, 08:49 PM.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

          Scripture translation can be unhelpful if you stick to literalism. Repentance can mean so many things. Obviously Paul doesn't mean Jesus taught the same things John the Baptist taught. Even John said the crowd had to return to God by following the Mosaic law, resulting in surviving the wrath, but to move forward, when Jesus announced the arrival of the Kingdom, resulting in becoming blessings to the world, through being able to pick up crosses, being lifted up, and being a light to guide people to God, the fulfillment of the promise to Abraham:
          geh?! No prophet ever called on people to return to the law, except as a facet of calling for a return to God. The call has always been, "Seek the LORD and live"

          Acts 19.1Now it happened that while Apollos was in Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples. 2He said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said to him, “On the contrary, we have not even heard if there is a Holy Spirit.” 3And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” And they said, “Into John’s baptism.” 4Paul said, “John baptized with a baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5When they heard this, they were baptized [a]in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6And when Paul had laid hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying. 7There were about twelve men in all.
          Paul considered John's baptism deficient, and not a baptism into Christ. He baptised the people concerned into Christ and then into the Holy Spirit. If there is any doubt about whether baptism into Christ and baptism into the Holy Spirit are independent actions, Peter observes his audience receive baptism into the Holy Spirit and then baptises them, with water being necessary to that action. Further, Peter and John also encounter a group who had only been baptised into Christ and then baptised them into the Holy Spirit. (Acts 8:14-16).
          ...

          Acts 26.20
          Aramaic Bible in Plain English
          “But from the first I preached to those in Darmsuq, and to those in Jerusalem and those in all the villages of Judea, and I preached also to the Gentiles that they repent (stop sinning in continuing to be ignorant of the Gospel) and be converted to God and to do deeds worthy of a return to God.”

          Contemporary English Version
          First I preached to the people in Damascus, and then I went to Jerusalem and all over Judea. Finally, I went to the Gentiles and said, "Stop sinning (being unaware of the Gospel) and turn to God! Then prove what you have done by the way you live.

          In other words, according to Scripture, sinning is not knowing what the Gospel is!


          Which, according to Scripture, is the coming of the Kingdom amongst men:
          An event that brings with it the ability to become righteous, distributed by the Holy Spirit to people who accept Christ.
          5 Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry.
          6 For it is because of these things that the wrath of God will come upon the sons of disobedience,
          7 and in them you also once walked, when you were living in them

          No talk from Paul about continuing to sin - it is conduct relegated to the past. It also remains that this is a matter of development, not an instantaneous action.

          1 Cor 15.1Now I make known to you, brothers and sisters, the gospel which I preached to you, which you also received, in which you also stand, 2by which you also are saved, if you hold firmly to [a]the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

          3For I handed down to you [b]as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that He appeared to [c]Cephas, then to the twelve. 6After that He appeared to more than five hundred brothers and sisters at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; 7then He appeared to [d]James, then to all the apostles; 8and last of all, as [e]to one untimely born, He appeared to me also.
          According to Paul, sinning is tantamount to idolatry:
          Ephesians 5:5 For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
          19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.


          Whether believer or not, the penalty for sin is the same.

          According to explicit scripture, does the person in the Spirit remain in the flesh, or are these mutually exclusive conditions?
          According to explicit scripture, the person who is in the flesh is incapable of two things - what are they?
          Last edited by tabibito; 07-31-2021, 12:52 AM.
          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
          .
          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
          Scripture before Tradition:
          but that won't prevent others from
          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
          of the right to call yourself Christian.

          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

          Comment


          • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
            geh?! No prophet ever called on people to return to the law, except as a facet of calling for a return to God. The call has always been, "Seek the LORD and live"

            God told Israel to observe fasting and tithing, without neglecting the weightier requirements of the Law, justice, mercy and loving God. The land He gave them was not like Egypt (Deuteronomy 11.10), where the people had the Nile, did not depend on God. In Israel, when the people lived by loving each other and God, altruistically, sacrificially, He would give rain and plentiful harvest. The Nations, would see this protection against loss from sacrificial living and turn to follow God. Instead, Israel used the promise to Abraham, to bless his descendants, to force God to make them blessings to the world. Every time God sent prophets to collect rent, saved souls, Israel killed them for teaching such a dangerous teaching. Instead they used immunity like some diplomats use immunity, to live lawlessly.


            Luke 20.99But He began to tell the people this parable: “A man planted a vineyard and leased it to [b]vine-growers, and went on a journey for a long time. 10At the harvest time he sent a slave to the vine-growers, so that they would give him his share of the produce of the vineyard; but the vine-growers beat him and sent him away empty-handed. 11And he proceeded to send another slave; but they beat him also and treated him shamefully, and sent him away empty-handed. 12And he proceeded to send a third; but this one too they wounded and threw out. 13Now the [c]owner of the vineyard said, ‘What am I to do? I will send my beloved son; perhaps they will respect him.’ 14But when the vine-growers saw him, they discussed with one another, saying, ‘This is the heir; let’s kill him so that the inheritance will be ours.’ 15And so they threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. What, then, will the [d]owner of the vineyard do to them? 16He will come and put these vine-growers to death, and will give the vineyard to others.” However, when they heard this, they said, “May it never happen!” 17But [e]Jesus looked at them and said, “Then what is this statement that has been written:

            ‘A STONE (a teaching) WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED,

            THIS HAS BECOME THE [f]CHIEF CORNERSTONE’? 18Everyone who falls on that stone will be broken to pieces; but on whomever it falls, it will crush him.”


            Paul considered John's baptism deficient, and not a baptism into Christ. He baptised the people concerned into Christ and then into the Holy Spirit. If there is any doubt about whether baptism into Christ and baptism into the Holy Spirit are independent actions, Peter observes his audience receive baptism into the Holy Spirit and then baptises them, with water being necessary to that action. Further, Peter and John also encounter a group who had only been baptised into Christ and then baptised them into the Holy Spirit. (Acts 8:14-16).
            ...

            Those who believe the Gospel are baptised into Christ automatically receive the Holy Spirit:

            Acts 10.44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the [ae]message. 45All the [af]Jewish believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had also been poured out on the Gentiles. 46For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter responded, 47“Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?” 48And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

            God sees true belief, hearing with faith, and gives the Holy Spirit. However, sometimes, it may take time before this happens. God gave the authority to forgive sins, recognise true belief, and allowed the Apostles to immediately give the Holy Spirit to those they recognised as true believers.
            ...

            An event that brings with it the ability to become righteous, distributed by the Holy Spirit to people who accept Christ.
            5 Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry.

            6 For it is because of these things that the wrath of God will come upon the sons of disobedience,

            7 and in them you also once walked, when you were living in them



            No talk from Paul about continuing to sin - it is conduct relegated to the past. It also remains that this is a matter of development, not an instantaneous action.
            Yet Luke equates Paul's action in Acts 19.1-4 of persuading believers to stop being ignorant, to teaching to stop sinning:

            Acts 26.20Contemporary English Version
            First I preached to the people in Damascus, and then I went to Jerusalem and all over Judea. Finally, I went to the Gentiles and said, "Stop sinning (being unaware of the Gospel) and turn to God! Then prove what you have done by the way you live.

            In other words, according to Scripture, sinning is not knowing what the Gospel is!
            ...

            According to Paul, sinning is tantamount to idolatry:
            Ephesians 5:5 For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.

            19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.



            Whether believer or not, the penalty for sin is the same.

            According to explicit scripture, does the person in the Spirit remain in the flesh, or are these mutually exclusive conditions?

            According to explicit scripture, the person who is in the flesh is incapable of two things - what are they?
            ...
            They cannot see the Kingdom.
            They must drink rain and produce vegetation, be born again.

            They cannot enter the Kingdom.
            They must drink from the Rock, and profit from it, change from fearful followers to courageous leaders, like Abraham and Caleb.


            1 Cor 10.1-4, Num 14.24, John 3.1-5, Heb 6.7.
            Last edited by footwasher; 07-31-2021, 04:01 AM.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

              Show Scripture.

              The text actually says the ordo salutis is:

              Hear the true Gospel with belief, receive the faith strengthening ministry (the witnessing of miracles, like the Exodus multitude, like Chorazin and Bethesda) of the Holy Spirit.

              Hear the Holy Spirit with faith (drink from the Rock, produce vegetation), become perfected (be born again). Like Caleb. Don't be like the rest of Israel, who did not keep God's great works in their hearts, but kept thinking like people who were never fed rain from heaven:

              Acts 19.1Now it happened that while Apollos was in Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples. 2He said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said to him, “On the contrary, we have not even heard if there is a Holy Spirit.” 3And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” And they said, “Into John’s baptism.” 4Paul said, “John baptized with a baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5When they heard this, they were baptized [a]in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6And when Paul had laid hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.

              Gal 3.2This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by works of [b]the Law, or by hearing [c]with faith? 3Are you so foolish? Having begun [d]by the Spirit, are you now [e]being perfected by the flesh? 4Did you [f]suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works [g]miracles among you, do it by works of [h]the Law, or by hearing [i]with faith?

              Num 14.20So the LORD said, “I have forgiven them in accordance with your word; 21however, as I live, [k]all the earth will be filled with the glory of the LORD. 22Certainly all the people who have seen My glory and My signs which I performed in Egypt and in the wilderness, yet have put Me to the test these ten times and have not listened to My voice, 23shall by no means see the land which I swore to their fathers, nor shall any of those who were disrespectful to Me see it. 24But as for My servant Caleb, because he has had a different spirit and has followed Me fully, I will bring him into the land which he [l]entered, and his [m]descendants shall take possession of it.

              Heb 6.7For ground that drinks the rain which often [g]falls on it and produces vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and [h]close to being cursed, and [i]it ends up being burned.

              Since those not born again cannot be in Rest, in the Kingdom, they cannot through the finger of God do great works, pick up crosses and be lifted up from the earth. Cannot take on the enemy, sins in their lives, like Caleb and Joshua took on the Amorites, and defeat them.

              For these people, the Law is required, to be a curse, to show them the need for a Deliverer, to keep revealing their sins to them, because that is what the Law does best:

              1 Tim 1.8But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, 9realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and worldly, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10for the [f]sexually immoral, homosexuals, [g]slave traders, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, 11according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.

              In other words, the law is for those who are rebellious, who have rejected the Gospel.

              Obviously, a person can't start being saved unless he hears the correct Gospel.

              What Gospel did you hear?
              I do not read lengthy posts. If you make your point in fewer words it would allow for a clear answer.

              Comment


              • Acts 26.20
                Contemporary English Version
                First I preached to the people in Damascus, and then I went to Jerusalem and all over Judea. Finally, I went to the Gentiles and said, "Stop sinning (being unaware of the Gospel) and turn to God! Then prove what you have done by the way you live.
                Where did you get "being unaware of the Gospel" from.

                In other words, according to Scripture, sinning is not knowing what the Gospel is!
                By ... no ... means. Every point of exposition made EXPLICITLY available in scripture, relevant to the topic, makes it clear that "hearing" is used in its sense of "heeding." That use of "hearing" is common to many languages, including Koine Greek, Hebrew, and English.

                They cannot see the Kingdom.
                κληρονομησουσιν = "to be an heir." They will not be heirs of heaven.

                Those who believe the Gospel are baptised into Christ automatically receive the Holy Spirit:
                The record of Acts Acts 8:14-16 explicitly denies this claim.
                Peter observes his audience receive baptism into the Holy Spirit and then baptises them, with water being necessary to that action. Further, Peter and John also encounter a group who had only been baptised into Christ and then baptised them into the Holy Spirit.





                According to explicit scripture, does the person in the Spirit remain in the flesh, or are these mutually exclusive conditions?

                According to explicit scripture, the person who is in the flesh is incapable of two things - what are they?
                Last edited by tabibito; 07-31-2021, 04:29 AM.
                1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                .
                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                Scripture before Tradition:
                but that won't prevent others from
                taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                of the right to call yourself Christian.

                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                Comment


                • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                  Where did you get "being unaware of the Gospel" from.

                  By ... no ... means. Every point of exposition made EXPLICITLY available in scripture, relevant to the topic, makes it clear that "hearing" is used in its sense of "heeding." That use of "hearing" is common to many languages, including Koine Greek, Hebrew, and English.
                  Didn't Paul find that the disciples in Acts 19 were unaware of the Gospel? Isn't Luke saying he told them to stop sinning in Acts 26.20?

                  ​​​​​​...

                  κληρονομησουσιν = "to be an heir." They will not be heirs of heaven.
                  Same thing.

                  The record of Acts Acts 8:14-16 explicitly denies this claim.
                  Peter observes his audience receive baptism into the Holy Spirit and then baptises them, with water being necessary to that action. Further, Peter and John also encounter a group who had only been baptised into Christ and then baptised them into the Holy Spirit.

                  Cornelius received the Holy Spirit by hearing with faith. No laying on of hands.

                  According to explicit scripture, does the person in the Spirit remain in the flesh, or are these mutually exclusive conditions?

                  According to explicit scripture, the person who is in the flesh is incapable of two things - what are they?
                  Flesh gives birth to flesh. Israel listened to rational thought resulting from natural experience. They forgot God's great works, like Chorazin and Bethesda.

                  Spirit gives birth to spirit. Caleb listened to idealistic (spiritual) thought resulting from supernatural revelation of great works from God. Caleb had had a different spirit (Num 14.24).

                  Caleb said the Land was good. Caleb could enter the Land.

                  ​​​​​​​John 3.3¶Jesus replied, “Truly I tell you, unless someone is born again,fn he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
                  4¶“How can anyone be born when he is old? ” Nicodemus asked him. “Can he enter his mother’s womb a second time and be born? ”
                  5¶Jesus answered, “Truly I tell you, unless someone is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6Whatever is born of flesh is flesh, whatever is born of spirit is spirit.
                  Last edited by footwasher; 07-31-2021, 05:41 AM.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by footwasher View Post
                    Didn't Paul find that the disciples in Acts 19 were unaware of the Gospel?
                    No. (Acts 19:1) they were under-informed, in possession of an incomplete gospel. People unaware of the gospel would not have been disciples, they would perhaps have been termed "God fearers."

                    Isn't Luke saying he told them to stop sinning in Acts 26.20?
                    No. The people spoken of in that passage were not believers when Paul began preaching to them. Paul encountered believers in Acts 19.
                    Acts 26:20 but kept declaring both to those of Damascus first, and also at Jerusalem and then throughout all the region of Judea, and even to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds appropriate to repentance.
                    Those people had not turned to God.

                    Luke cited Paul as saying that he preached the gospel everywhere.
                    Even in Rome, at that early date?

                    Same thing.
                    Yet you still found it necessary to reword "inherit" to make it "see."

                    Cornelius received the Holy Spirit by hearing with faith. No laying on of hands.
                    And Peter still found it necessary to baptise him. People had been baptised into Christ, but Peter and John still found it necessary to baptise them into the Holy Spirit. Two different processes involved, which indicates that baptism might not be just one procedure.



                    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                    .
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                    Scripture before Tradition:
                    but that won't prevent others from
                    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                    of the right to call yourself Christian.

                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by tabibito View Post


                      No. (Acts 19:1) they were under-informed, in possession of an incomplete gospel. People unaware of the gospel would not have been disciples, they would perhaps have been termed "God fearers."

                      The text says the Acts 19 believers were disciples.



                      No. The people spoken of in that passage were not believers when Paul began preaching to them. Paul encountered believers in Acts 19.

                      Are you saying Paul never told Jews, even good believers, the people mentioned in Acts 26.20, to stop sinning?



                      Those people had not turned to God.
                      Yes, that's what the text says.



                      Even in Rome, at that early date?
                      I didn't write what you quoted.



                      Yet you still found it necessary to reword "inherit" to make it "see."

                      The cowards with Caleb couldn't see the Land because they were influenced by their worldly reasoning. In turn they couldn't inherit the Land, because God wanted a loyal response, influenced by the witnessing of His great works, from them, and when they couldn't give that response, He would not allow them into that Land.



                      And Peter still found it necessary to baptise him. People had been baptised into Christ, but Peter and John still found it necessary to baptise them into the Holy Spirit. Two different processes involved, which indicates that baptism might not be just one procedure.

                      I showed you Scripture where people received the Holy Spirit even without being baptised. Shows your statement that baptism leads to the giving of the Holy Spirit is wrong. The Holy Spirit is received just by hearing with faith.


                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by footwasher View Post
                        The text says the Acts 19 believers were disciples.
                        It does. Therefore they were in possession of at least the critical elements of the gospel. The fact that they are termed "disciples" shows that they were adhering to what they had been taught.

                        Are you saying Paul never told Jews, even good believers, the people mentioned in Acts 26.20, to stop sinning?
                        Why would Paul preach that people who were already being saved should repent? Good (God fearing) people would not need to repent of doing good. No concept of "never" can be derived from any of my comments.

                        T: Those people had not turned to God.
                        F:Yes, that's what the text says.
                        Disciples have turned to God: which underscores my previous point. The disciples whom Paul encountered were not being spoken of in Acts 26:20. Those spoken of in that passage had not turned to God.


                        I showed you Scripture where people received the Holy Spirit even without being baptised.
                        My statement: It is clear that baptism into Christ and baptism into the Holy Spirit are different facets of Baptism. In one place, baptism into Christ precedes baptism into the Holy Spirit; in another, baptism into the Holy Spirit precedes baptism into Christ. Baptism is not complete until both actions have been undertaken. It is equally clear that baptism into the Holy Spirit is neither "automatic," nor necessarily dependent upon a laying on of hands. Ideally, people should be baptised into Christ when they express belief - at that very time even, and then the preacher should pray with them so that they may receive the Holy Spirit. Nothing indicates that the ideal is a fixed procedure - flexibility is demonstrated well enough by scripture.

                        (First:) Shows your statement that baptism leads to the giving of the Holy Spirit is wrong. (Second:) The Holy Spirit is received just by hearing with faith.
                        First: I never said that, and nothing in what I did say could reasonably have led to that conclusion. Second: The Holy Spirit is can be received just by hearing with faith. In fact, the Holy Spirit can fall on a person when no preaching is actually being conducted at the time. Standard procedure is not a requirement, God can and does ring in changes on his own recognisance. Receiving the Holy Spirit prior to baptism into Christ is not standard procedure.
                        1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                        .
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                        Scripture before Tradition:
                        but that won't prevent others from
                        taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                        of the right to call yourself Christian.

                        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                          It does. Therefore they were in possession of at least the critical elements of the gospel. The fact that they are termed "disciples" shows that they were adhering to what they had been taught.

                          Here's a thought. The problem incurred by the Fall was a halting of God's plan. Adam could subdue Creation through having God by his side. The finger of God is involved when we are at Rest, in the Kingdom/Garden. The Garden was the environment where Adam's own unsubdued nature could stand in God's presence.


                          Moses could also subdue, through the finger of God. God explained how He did it: He had allowed Moses into a similar environment, revealed as a Rock, with a cleft.


                          So, somehow, this environment, Kingdom, had come amongst men. Where unsubdued believers could stand in God's presence.


                          Therefore, those who had not entered Rest were reckoned as 'sinners', explaining Paul's plea to them to stop remaining in that condition. By being informed of the solution, the Gospel, that which made non-sinners out of sinners.


                          Why would Paul preach that people who were already being saved should repent? Good (God fearing) people would not need to repent of doing good. No concept of "never" can be derived from any of my comments.
                          See above.


                          Disciples have turned to God: which underscores my previous point. The disciples whom Paul encountered were not being spoken of in Acts 26:20. Those spoken of in that passage had not turned to God.
                          See above.


                          My statement: It is clear that baptism into Christ and baptism into the Holy Spirit are different facets of Baptism. In one place, baptism into Christ precedes baptism into the Holy Spirit; in another, baptism into the Holy Spirit precedes baptism into Christ. Baptism is not complete until both actions have been undertaken. It is equally clear that baptism into the Holy Spirit is neither "automatic," nor necessarily dependent upon a laying on of hands. Ideally, people should be baptised into Christ when they express belief - at that very time even, and then the preacher should pray with them so that they may receive the Holy Spirit. Nothing indicates that the ideal is a fixed procedure - flexibility is demonstrated well enough by scripture.
                          Receiving the Holy Spirit is metonymy. It means receiving the training course, being educated how God rescues from picking up crosses. This education is required because this is how eternal life is lived, by picking up crosses, being lifted up and drawing people, like Rahab and Nicodemus, to God. That's why it's important to receive the training, edification, and being tested to see if the training caught, was successfully absorbed, like Abraham and Caleb were tested. It would be pointless to admit believers into a ministry of picking up crosses, if they did not profit from witnessing God's faithful saving, if they were scared to pick up crosses, yes?


                          Israel heard that there was a different life than that of living a life resulting in gains that rusted and perished (you and I are both Israel, in that respect). We believed (at least I hope you heard this Gospel, and believed). God created evil, and rescued (danger from Pharaoh and food shortages in the case of Abraham and Israel). Abraham remembered his training, bread from heaven, and used it to pass the test. Israel forgot, and failed. If we didn't receive the Holy Spirit, it means we received the wrong Gospel. In that sense, we didn't start out on the journey to finally enter Rest, stand in God's presence, so we are still sinners, because only the pure can stand in His presence, and draw people to God, by healing the sick or explaining difficult topics.


                          1 Cor 14.24But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an ungifted man enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all; 25the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so he will fall on his face and worship God, declaring that God is certainly among you.



                          First: I never said that, and nothing in what I did say could reasonably have led to that conclusion. Second: The Holy Spirit is can be received just by hearing with faith. In fact, the Holy Spirit can fall on a person when no preaching is actually being conducted at the time. Standard procedure is not a requirement, God can and does ring in changes on his own recognisance. Receiving the Holy Spirit prior to baptism into Christ is not standard procedure.

                          Israel received the Holy Spirit by hearing with faith. It manifested as bread from heaven, being trained in the concept that God can save from any problem, even if we lay down our lives. There was no hurry to speed up the process, Rest could be entered only after the Cross. What Joshua gave Israel was a type, a foreshadowing of the Kingdom.


                          After the Cross, receiving the faith strengthening ministry of the Holy Spirit came in the form of edification from tongues, making the training course short, concentrated. The Apostles used their discretionary powers to forgive, to speed up the process even more. Note, there is no guarantee of fulfillment, what Scripture calls 'perfection' , entering the cleft of the Rock, even after receiving the Holy Spirit:


                          Heb 6.4For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6and then have [e]fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, [f]since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. 7For ground that drinks the rain which often [g]falls on it and produces vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and [h]close to being cursed, and [i]it ends up being burned.

                          Comment


                          • Therefore, those who had not entered Rest were reckoned as 'sinners', explaining Paul's plea to them to stop remaining in that condition. By being informed of the solution, the Gospel, that which made non-sinners out of sinners.
                            Being informed of the solution has no effect whatever. Heeding the call has an effect. Paul declares what sin is as thoroughly as did Christ himself. Christ said "go and sin no more;" Paul says the same.





                            1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                            .
                            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                            Scripture before Tradition:
                            but that won't prevent others from
                            taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                            of the right to call yourself Christian.

                            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                              Being informed of the solution has no effect whatever. Heeding the call has an effect. Paul declares what sin is as thoroughly as did Christ himself. Christ said "go and sin no more;" Paul says the same.




                              Paul says "Begin the journey to become sinless, by entering Rest, starting with receiving the Holy Spirit, training".

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

                                Paul says "Begin the journey to become sinless, by entering Rest, starting with receiving the Holy Spirit, training".
                                Nicely phrased, though I question whether entering rest is a means to becoming sinless - it would seem, rather, to be a result of maturity: a matter of finding rest when the fight against one's own sin is won.
                                1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                                .
                                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                                Scripture before Tradition:
                                but that won't prevent others from
                                taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                                of the right to call yourself Christian.

                                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                                Comment

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