God's Love and Allowing Evil

[footwasher]

Only God can make a person born-again. And only then can they believe at a spiritual level. You cannot cause your new birth any more than you caused your natural birth.

[Sparko]

No! Under the Covenant of Grace, God rewards loyalty with the giving of the Holy Spirit, with recognition that you have become a member of His household, privy to partaking of the powers of the ages to come ((Heb 6). Your show of loyalty isn't given a COVER of righteousness. It IS a righteous act!

Faith is a work, in the sense it is something we do, show loyalty. Of course, it is lip service, unconfirmed, only words, such as swearing loyalty to a suzerain king, and as James said, confirmed, perfected by external action. These are real world scenarios.

James has no conflict with Paul.

Well we were doing so well, agreeing, but now you went off the rails.

Even if you do a righteous act, it doesn't absolve you from the sins you already committed. That is why God gives his righteousness to those who have faith in Jesus Christ, because our works are "filthy rags" - He tosses those rags away and clothes us in righteousness. But not OUR righteousness, God's righteousness. It's all there in Romans 3, all together in context so you don't have to play word salad with the bible to stitch together your own idea of what is going on.

^{Romans 3:20} Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
²¹ But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. ²² This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, ²³ for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, ²⁴ and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. ²⁵ God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— ²⁶ he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

[Dave L]

You are not even close to getting this right.

[footwasher]

Well we were doing so well, agreeing, but now you went off the rails.

Even if you do a righteous act, it doesn't absolve you from the sins you already committed. That is why God gives his righteousness to those who have faith in Jesus Christ, because our works are "filthy rags" - He tosses those rags away and clothes us in righteousness. But not OUR righteousness, God's righteousness. It's all there in Romans 3, all together in context so you don't have to play word salad with the bible to stitch together your own idea of what is going on.

^{Romans 3:20} Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
²¹ But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. ²² This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, ²³ for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, ²⁴ and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. ²⁵ God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— ²⁶ he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

Maybe this will help. Paul says the criteria God uses has been made known, confirmed by the Law and the Prophets, meaning the entire Old Testament. What does the Old Testament confirm? That God is pleased with loyalty!

In other words, works were never a criteria for being accepted into the household of God. If it had been so, then NOBODY would have got in.

Works had a different usage. God used the wicked demand for law by Israel at Sinai for good, they meant it for evil, as insurance, a shield against God, but He meant it for good, to give them a way to not become exterminated, like Sodom and Gomorrah. Instead of using perfect observance as a criteria for accepting people into His household, He decided to use grace, loyalty, belief in His word.

You can see now how the Publican, Elizabeth, Zechariah, Anna, Simeon and Nathan were considered righteous. They took God at His word, instead of twisting Scripture like the Pharisees, requiring John the Baptist and Jesus to rebuke them for neglecting the weightier requirements of the law, not being loyal to God and His word.

However, John told the crowd to meta-noia, restore the original meaning of the Law, but he also told them to move BEYOND the Law, to be loyal to Jesus (who would be sent) and HIS teachings. That is, the righteous requirements of God (the righteousness of God) is loyalty to Christ, eating His flesh and drinking His blood, believing His teachings.

No longer did God throw a curved ball with the Sinaitic Covenant, because the time was now right for Jesus to be sent.

However, the law had a good purpose. It was a guardian, protector, babysitter (pedaigogous was a slave, taking children to school, wrongly translated as tutor) because when used to measure loyalty, it kept the Remnant justified!

Bottomline, righteousness was not given to believers. When the phrase 'apart from the law' is used, it means something is different from the law. The criteria of the law was perfect observance, works. The new criteria, different from that of the Law, the righteousness REQUIRED BY GOD, is faith, loyalty to Christ.

[footwasher]

You are not even close to getting this right.

Prove it using Scripture.

Psalms 106.21They forgot God their Savior,

Who had done great things in Egypt,

22[q]Wonders in the land of Ham,

And awesome things by the [r]Red Sea.

23Therefore He said that He would destroy them,

If Moses, His chosen one, had not stood in the gap before Him,

To turn away His wrath from destroying them.

24Then they rejected the pleasant land;

They did not believe His word,

25But grumbled in their tents;

They did not listen to the voice of the LORD.

26Therefore He [s]swore to them

That He would have them fall in the wilderness,

27And that He would bring down their [t]descendants among the nations,

And scatter them in the lands.


At least Israel heard the Gospel with faith, and witnessed the faith strengthening ministry of the Holy Spirit.

You don't even know what the Gospel is. Better look for a church where you can buy milk and honey, without money.

[tabibito]

God extends grace to people who repent, so his grace is unmerited but not unearned.

"God covers us with his righteousness, but we remain sinners." ?? "We can't overcome sin while we are in the flesh" ?? "God does it all" ??

The first makes us whitewashed tombs. The second denies that a disciple of Christ is in the Spirit. The third denies that the believer is responsible for purifying himself under the aegis of the Holy Spirit.

[Dave L]

Prove it using Scripture.

Psalms 106.21They forgot God their Savior,

Who had done great things in Egypt,

22[q]Wonders in the land of Ham,

And awesome things by the [r]Red Sea.

23Therefore He said that He would destroy them,

If Moses, His chosen one, had not stood in the gap before Him,

To turn away His wrath from destroying them.

24Then they rejected the pleasant land;

They did not believe His word,

25But grumbled in their tents;

They did not listen to the voice of the LORD.

26Therefore He [s]swore to them

That He would have them fall in the wilderness,

27And that He would bring down their [t]descendants among the nations,

And scatter them in the lands.


At least Israel heard the Gospel with faith, and witnessed the faith strengthening ministry of the Holy Spirit.

You don't even know what the Gospel is. Better look for a church where you can buy milk and honey, without money.

So you believe the Law could save? Not even close to historic Christianity.........

[footwasher]

So you believe the Law could save? Not even close to historic Christianity.........

So you think tradition is superior to Scripture?

All those mentioned in Hebrews 11 remembered God's great works, and believed, were loyal, and were saved.

And the Publican believed Deuteronomy 27.26, the Law, AND THAT BELIEF, THAT LOYALTY, SAVED HIM,AND HE WENT HOME JUSTIFIED.

Because of people like him, the Remnant, Israel was also saved. Were it not for the Remnant, Israel would have gone the way of Sodom, of Gomorrah. So that's how the Law was used to preserve Israel.

Rom 9.27Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, “THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE SONS OF ISRAEL MAY BE LIKE THE SAND OF THE SEA, ONLY THE REMNANT WILL BE SAVED; 28FOR THE LORD WILL EXECUTE HIS WORD ON THE EARTH, [t]THOROUGHLY AND [u]QUICKLY.” 29And just as Isaiah foretold:

“IF THE LORD [v]OF ARMIES HAD NOT LEFT US [w]DESCENDANTS,

WE WOULD HAVE BECOME LIKE SODOM, AND WOULD HAVE [x]BEEN LIKE GOMORRAH.”

[Dave L]

So you think tradition is superior to Scripture?

All those mentioned in Hebrews 11 remembered God's great works, and believed, were loyal, and were saved.

And the Publican believed Deuteronomy 27.26, the Law, AND THAT BELIEF, THAT LOYALTY, SAVED HIM,AND HE WENT HOME JUSTIFIED.

Because of people like him, the Remnant, Israel was also saved. Were it not for the Remnant, Israel would have gone the way of Sodom, of Gomorrah. So that's how the Law was used to preserve Israel.

Rom 9.27Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, “THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE SONS OF ISRAEL MAY BE LIKE THE SAND OF THE SEA, ONLY THE REMNANT WILL BE SAVED; 28FOR THE LORD WILL EXECUTE HIS WORD ON THE EARTH, [t]THOROUGHLY AND [u]QUICKLY.” 29And just as Isaiah foretold:

“IF THE LORD [v]OF ARMIES HAD NOT LEFT US [w]DESCENDANTS,

WE WOULD HAVE BECOME LIKE SODOM, AND WOULD HAVE [x]BEEN LIKE GOMORRAH.”

Try to understand scripture before teaching what you think it says. “Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;” 1 Timothy 1:9–10 (KJV 1900)

[footwasher]

Try to understand scripture before teaching what you think it says. “Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;” 1 Timothy 1:9–10 (KJV 1900)

And yet, John the Baptist, and Jesus, told the Jews not to twist Deut 27.26, to repent, to go back to its original meaning, to believe God's word, to not neglect the weightier requirements of the LAW, TO DO ALL THE LAW:


Luke 3.7So he was saying to the crowds who were going out to be baptized by him, “You [d]offspring of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8Therefore produce fruits that are consistent with repentance, and do not start saying [e]to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father,’ for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children for Abraham.

Luke 11.42"But woe to you Pharisees! For you pay tithes of mint, rue, and every kind of garden herb, and yet you ignore justice and the love of God; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.

[tabibito]

Maybe Paul got it wrong early in his ministry and had to correct the error later, or maybe Luke misquoted him, or maybe there were special impositions on some that did not apply generally:

Paul (Acts 26:20) I preached to those in Damascus first, and to those in Jerusalem and in all the region of Judea, and to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works worthy of repentance.

[Dave L]

And yet, John the Baptist, and Jesus, told the Jews not to twist Deut 27.26, to repent, to go back to its original meaning, to believe God's word, to not neglect the weightier requirements of the LAW, TO DO ALL THE LAW:


Luke 3.7So he was saying to the crowds who were going out to be baptized by him, “You [d]offspring of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8Therefore produce fruits that are consistent with repentance, and do not start saying [e]to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father,’ for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children for Abraham.

Luke 11.42"But woe to you Pharisees! For you pay tithes of mint, rue, and every kind of garden herb, and yet you ignore justice and the love of God; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.

Here's what's happening. True believers didn't need the law, they were Holy, but they kept the law at a higher level motivated by love. The wicked however did not keep it because they lacked God's Spirit. They kept the law in greed so God would bless them materially. Or they broke it under threat of death and judgment. You need to differentiate between these two groups.

[footwasher]

Here's what's happening. True believers didn't need the law, they were Holy, but they kept the law at a higher level motivated by love. The wicked however did not keep it because they lacked God's Spirit. They kept the law in greed so God would bless them materially. Or they broke it under threat of death and judgment. You need to differentiate between these two groups.

Still does not explain why Jesus recommended the observance of the Law.

And He did it BECAUSE Israel, who were God's children (according to what Jesus told the Syro-phoenician woman, whom He called a dog), did not believe what God required, to be perfect followers of the Law.

So both Jesus and God taught full observance of the Law.

Now explain why They, both God and Jesus, taught this.

[Dave L]

Still does not explain why Jesus recommended the observance of the Law.

And He did it BECAUSE they did not believe what God required, to be perfect followers of the Law.

So both Jesus and God taught full observance of the Law.

Now explain why they did it.

God killed the disobedient. So the warning was for that reason.

[footwasher]

God killed the disobedient. So the warning was for that reason.

But those who believed God's word, observed ALL the Law, were the survivors. God said He had kept aside 7000 survivors. They were carried away to Babylon. The others died.

If God had not kept the survivors, Israel would have disappeared. They lived in Babylon, and became numerous, and returned from Exile, to form the nation again. Even today, because there are Jews who believe God's word, to observe all the law, are living. That's why Israel has not disappeared.

When the correct number of Gentiles are converted, then Israel will see Jesus miraculously, like Paul saw Him on the Damascus road, and all Israel will be converted.

See Romans 9.27-29.