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Theology 201 Guidelines
This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
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All men are evil/sinners, deserve to be destroyed
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostJed is right. Spoken like a true apophatic.Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
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Originally posted by Jedidiah View PostThere is a short sightedness in this discussion. We are not given all knowledge (in spite of what FarEastBirt seems to think). We do not know why God created man the way he did. It was his pleasure to do so. We can never, even in glory, come close to understanding all about God. He is not super strong, super smart man. He is so far above us we can not even comprehend the distance....WISDOM giveth life to them that have it. (Ecclesiastes 7:12)
...the ISLES shall wait for his law (Isaiah 42:4)
https://philippinesinprophecies.wordpress.com/
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What makes us unworthy/evil speaks of our true nature. We are purely flesh (Gen 6:3). Paul said, "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not." (Rom 7:18) Regardless of human advancements, even today, we see that human nature is but self centered. Even Prof Dawkins, though he is championing naturalism, would not lie about the true nature of human nature. The bible itself tells us of true human nature:
18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts. 19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. 20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. Eccl 3:18-20
We are dust by nature and does not differ to animals who have their morality in their flesh. Thus is the reason why our salvation should not be a work of our flesh, we ought not give glory to any man. Rather it is God himself who will work on us to will and to do of His good will (Phil 2:13). Paul said, "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." (Eph 2:10) Paul also said, "28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren." (Rom 8:28-29)...WISDOM giveth life to them that have it. (Ecclesiastes 7:12)
...the ISLES shall wait for his law (Isaiah 42:4)
https://philippinesinprophecies.wordpress.com/
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Originally posted by FarEastBird View PostWhat makes us unworthy/evil speaks of our true nature. We are purely flesh (Gen 6:3). Paul said, "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not." (Rom 7:18) Regardless of human advancements, even today, we see that human nature is but self centered. Even Prof Dawkins, though he is championing naturalism, would not lie about the true nature of human nature. The bible itself tells us of true human nature:
18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts. 19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. 20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. Eccl 3:18-20
We are dust by nature and does not differ to animals who have their morality in their flesh. Thus is the reason why our salvation should not be a work of our flesh, we ought not give glory to any man. Rather it is God himself who will work on us to will and to do of His good will (Phil 2:13). Paul said, "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." (Eph 2:10) Paul also said, "28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren." (Rom 8:28-29)
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Originally posted by dacristoy View PostI choose to try and live up to
The spirit that I follow is the word of God, of which this spirit refers to God's plans in our Lord Jesus Christ. As I come to understand the word of God, and witness to happen to unfold in my life, that is my trust that I am in the spirit. But knowledge does not prove me of being in the spirit, but of being part of what is being unfolded of the word of God. There are prohesies given to us regarding the elect of God, as I see them unfold to me, is where I trust that God is working in me. Not just hoping, but truly knowing that God is with me
In truth and sincerity, it will be hard for anyone to distinguish who amongst us are speaking the truth of the word of God. The prophesies will give us the signs who, amongst us, are of God (Deut 18:20-22, 1Cor 14:22, 24)).
4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. 5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying. 1Cor 14:4-5...WISDOM giveth life to them that have it. (Ecclesiastes 7:12)
...the ISLES shall wait for his law (Isaiah 42:4)
https://philippinesinprophecies.wordpress.com/
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Originally posted by FarEastBird View PostIt is unfortunate that you trusted in the flesh, your flesh. You are following(after) your(the) flesh, and such cannot inherit the kingdom of God. You are a man yourself, and you trusted in yourself.The spirit that I follow is the word of God, of which this spirit refers to God's plans in our Lord Jesus Christ. As I come to understand the word of God, and witness to happen to unfold in my life, that is my trust that I am in the spirit. But knowledge does not prove me of being in the spirit, but of being part of what is being unfolded of the word of God. There are prohesies given to us regarding the elect of God, as I see them unfold to me, is where I trust that God is working in me. Not just hoping, but truly knowing that God is with me
In truth and sincerity, it will be hard for anyone to distinguish who amongst us are speaking the truth of the word of God. The prophesies will give us the signs who, amongst us, are of God (Deut 18:20-22, 1Cor 14:22, 24)).
4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. 5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying. 1Cor 14:4-5
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Originally posted by dacristoy View PostAaaah, er, you are not in the flesh...
The difference between you and me is that you do not know what God is doing to you, thus you rest on "your" trust, and you hope. Unfortunately, there is nothing you can do but hope and trust in your own strength. Yet you should know, that as a man, you are doomed to be tempted and to fail. Such is the sad nature of man, (including myself, of course), unless God will change us, and control our lives, we cannot escape such sad nature....WISDOM giveth life to them that have it. (Ecclesiastes 7:12)
...the ISLES shall wait for his law (Isaiah 42:4)
https://philippinesinprophecies.wordpress.com/
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Originally posted by FarEastBird View PostIndeed, I am not. I am not trusting in myself, but of God, who I see, is working in me. I have a sort of an assurance that God is working in me. As I explained, we, as flesh, are doomed to be selfish, and evil. But hence I see that God is working in me, then I am no more in the flesh, but rather that God is working in me. Paul said, "... it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." Note also the verses I quoted before.
The difference between you and me is that you do not know what God is doing to you, thus you rest on "your" trust, and you hope. Unfortunately, there is nothing you can do but hope and trust in your own strength. Yet you should know, that as a man, you are doomed to be tempted and to fail. Such is the sad nature of man, (including myself, of course), unless God will change us, and control our lives, we cannot escape such sad nature.
"Yet you should know, that as a man, you are doomed to be tempted and to fail". When did you cease being a man. Unless you're virgin born, you need a lot of prayer...
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Originally posted by dacristoy View PostI also see him working in me, and by what authority do you set yourself up to call me deceitful. When did God set you up to be my judge, jury, as well as executioner...
"Yet you should know, that as a man, you are doomed to be tempted and to fail". When did you cease being a man. Unless you're virgin born, you need a lot of prayer......WISDOM giveth life to them that have it. (Ecclesiastes 7:12)
...the ISLES shall wait for his law (Isaiah 42:4)
https://philippinesinprophecies.wordpress.com/
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Originally posted by FarEastBird View PostI clearly included myself as a man; I do not know why you took a blind eye on that part I wrote. It simply shows that you are not being fair in reading my post.
"Yet you should know, that as a man, you are doomed to be tempted and to fail", The word "you" should have ben replaced with the word "we". Your post appears to be a tad high strung to me, I will try to reevaluate and be more fair if I have been unfair...
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Originally posted by dacristoy View PostThe clear inclusion of yourself as a man should have incorporated the word "We" in your response.
"Yet you should know, that as a man, you are doomed to be tempted and to fail", The word "you" should have been replaced with the word "we".
My point was to give a good contrast of the difference between a person who knows that God is working in him, to a person who simply trust. And with those talk, I am leading you to understand clearly what it meant to be not under the flesh.
There is no way for a person who has no direct knowledge that God is working in him but to trust in his own self. And the only way we can escape such sad estate is that God would work on us. If I, myself, had attained anything because that I trusted, then I myself gained through my flesh. If so, I will be contradicting myself when I claim I am not under the flesh.Last edited by FarEastBird; 05-16-2014, 11:59 PM....WISDOM giveth life to them that have it. (Ecclesiastes 7:12)
...the ISLES shall wait for his law (Isaiah 42:4)
https://philippinesinprophecies.wordpress.com/
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