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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

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All men are evil/sinners, deserve to be destroyed

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  • #31
    Originally posted by FarEastBird View Post
    I was pointing to you the problem of when a person lack the knowledge, and thus poised only to have trust. There is no better example I can use except yourself. Nevertheless, as I concluded in the last sentence of my post, I am in no wise different with you as a man.

    My point was to give a good contrast of the difference between a person who knows that God is working in him, to a person who simply trust. And with those talk, I am leading you to understand clearly what it meant to be not under the flesh.

    There is no way for a person who has no direct knowledge that God is working in him but to trust in his own self. And the only way we can escape such sad estate is that God would work on us. If I, myself, had attained anything because that I trusted, then I myself gained through my flesh. If so, I will be contradicting myself when I claim I am not under the flesh.
    David Koresh, Jim Jones as well as Osama Ben Laden were all piously positive that God was working in them more so than in the other person. You know absolutely nothing about my relationship with God or how he works in me. You know only that you and I have some theological differences, differences that do not make you more spiritually gifted than I. If you would move your hand from patting yourself on the back, maybe it would give someone else an opportunity to do so.

    Get off your high horse and maybe we can discuss scripture, something that I believe we both know a little bit about, opposed to you discussing me, whom you know absolutely nothing

    Your comments: "It is unfortunate that you trusted in the flesh, your flesh. You are following(after) your(the) flesh, and such cannot inherit the kingdom of God. You are a man yourself, and you trusted in yourself", are you willing to wager your salvation that you are correct about me, if not zippit...


    O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! Romans 11:33 KJV
    You don't know me like that...
    Last edited by dacristoy; 05-17-2014, 10:42 AM.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by dacristoy View Post
      David Koresh, Jim Jones as well as Osama Ben Laden were all piously positive that God was working in them more so than in the other person. You know absolutely nothing about my relationship with God or how he works in me. You know only that you and I have some theological differences, differences that do not make you more spiritually gifted than I. If you would move your hand from patting yourself on the back, maybe it would give someone else an opportunity to do so.

      Get off your high horse and maybe we can discuss scripture, something that I believe we both know a little bit about, opposed to you discussing me, whom you know absolutely nothing

      Your comments: "It is unfortunate that you trusted in the flesh, your flesh. You are following(after) your(the) flesh, and such cannot inherit the kingdom of God. You are a man yourself, and you trusted in yourself", are you willing to wager your salvation that you are correct about me, if not zippit...


      O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! Romans 11:33 KJV
      You don't know me like that...
      I am so sad that you took the discussion into a personal level, rather than getting unto my messages. We should understand that the issues we discuss has a consequential personal impact, even of the things we hold dear the most about ourselves. But, as Paul says, "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."

      I, myself, was oftenly called heretic, but such does not bother me. Rather I am bothered by their behavior. Such who take things on a personal level had already lost the battle even before they begin. When we take things in a personal level our judgments will be clouded, such that everything we hear from the other person is unacceptable, and all we aim is to win. If people cannot see these things happening to them, they would be much worst than what they would not have imagine of themselves.


      are you willing to wager your salvation that you are correct about me,
      YES!!!!! YES!!!!!!! YES!!!!!!!!

      If you go back again to your OP, the answer I gave would not give you an ounce of idea that I think better of myself, even to anyone. I even believe, from what I quoted in the scripture, that "man has no preeminence above a beast." Never do I exclude myself as man. What ever I say about your hopelessness is actually true also about myself. You should have known this from the very start. My description of the nature of man is such grave that only God can take us out of such miserable state. And that, regardless I claim to be on a better state, you should think that it is God's work, and not me claiming to have, as if, done better than yours. If you think I am saying I am better than you, then you have grossly misunderstood me, and you likely have clouded your judgment about what I was saying.

      The issue I was trying to resolve, as we were moving further in our discussion, is "how would we know God is working on us."? I was not considering you and evil, of any sort, but merely explaining about "a person who only have trust" which lead me to explain what it meant to be "under the flesh." Unfortunately, you have taken things to be personal.....and all you seem to see in my talk is that.
      ...WISDOM giveth life to them that have it. (Ecclesiastes 7:12)
      ...the ISLES shall wait for his law (Isaiah 42:4)
      https://philippinesinprophecies.wordpress.com/

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      • #33
        Originally posted by FarEastBird View Post
        I am so sad that you took the discussion into a personal level, rather than getting unto my messages. We should understand that the issues we discuss has a consequential personal impact, even of the things we hold dear the most about ourselves. But, as Paul says, "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."

        I, myself, was oftenly called heretic, but such does not bother me. Rather I am bothered by their behavior. Such who take things on a personal level had already lost the battle even before they begin. When we take things in a personal level our judgments will be clouded, such that everything we hear from the other person is unacceptable, and all we aim is to win. If people cannot see these things happening to them, they would be much worst than what they would not have imagine of themselves.




        YES!!!!! YES!!!!!!! YES!!!!!!!!
        With that, I think i'll throw in my hat.

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        • #34
          I think the original question may be a red herring. Both in the prophets and in Jesus' teachings we see that people are worthy of death because of sin, but that God continues to love them. The primary way of speaking is about God's valuation. It's not that we are worthless or that we still have value. it's that God is committed to us in covenant and still loves us.

          The place I can think of where our real value is discussed in Genesis. God created everything, including man and woman, and called it good. Yet in the Noah story God decides that because of sin man isn't worth saving anymore. Noah, however, found favor. But when Noah came out of the ark, God made a covenant with him, and by inheritance, all of mankind, an everlasting covenant. This was not based on some optimistic view that we wouldn't sin again, as is clear in the wording of the passage (cf Gen 8:21). Rather, God established laws to deal with it.

          There's not an explicit answer to the original question in that story. It doesn't say that God established an everlasting covenant because he felt that man had a continuing value. But it seems to me that the passage implies that God decided he would not again call us worthless, but would deal with our sin.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by hedrick View Post
            I think the original question may be a red herring. Both in the prophets and in Jesus' teachings we see that people are worthy of death because of sin, but that God continues to love them. The primary way of speaking is about God's valuation. It's not that we are worthless or that we still have value. it's that God is committed to us in covenant and still loves us.
            All men have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Because of that, all men have been concluded under sin, and thereby the consequence of sin; which is death, not destruction.. Noteworthy, the consequence of sin was made known even before man sinned.
            The place I can think of where our real value is discussed in Genesis. God created everything, including man and woman, and called it good. Yet in the Noah story God decides that because of sin man isn't worth saving anymore.
            Not worth saving from death, not destruction… Thoughts negated by his subsequent decision concerning Noah and his family.
            5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
            6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
            7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
            You may want to call it nitpicking on my part, but I fail to see a foundational passage stating that “all men are worthy to be destroyed”. What I see is an action on God’s part that would remedy his disappointment for having created men in the first place because of sin… Death, eternal separation from God, not destruction.
            Noah, however, found favor. But when Noah came out of the ark, God made a covenant with him, and by inheritance, all of mankind, an everlasting covenant. This was not based on some optimistic view that we wouldn't sin again, as is clear in the wording of the passage (cf Gen 8:21). Rather, God established laws to deal with it.
            There's not an explicit answer to the original question in that story. It doesn't say that God established an everlasting covenant because he felt that man had a continuing value. But it seems to me that the passage implies that God decided he would not again call us worthless, but would deal with our sin.
            I agree, no explicit statement that all men are worthy to be destroyed.. Noah excluded….

            PS. There is a difference between the meanings of the two words “death and destruction”. Death means separation, destruction means to cease to exist. The wages of sin is death, not destruction…
            Last edited by dacristoy; 05-22-2014, 09:41 AM.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
              I don't know if any passages use wording like that but the principle can easily be derived from Romans 3:23 and Romans 6:23.
              Really? THink that claim will hold up to scrutiny? I Think you can turn those verses into DOGMATIC interpretations that don't fit context with little effort.

              The church has taught Sin Centric theology for over 450 years. I don't think scritpure backs it up. Fascist scare tactics...

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              • #37
                Originally posted by HeteroDoxic View Post
                ..I Think you can turn those verses into DOGMATIC interpretations..
                “There are two kinds of people in the world: the conscious dogmatists and the unconscious dogmatists. I have always found myself that the unconscious dogmatists were by far the most dogmatic.” ―Gilbert K. Chesterton

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by dacristoy View Post
                  Does the bible ever actually say that “all men are evil/sinners and deserve destruction” or is this actually an extrapolation of Augustine. If so, then from where in the bible is this ever actually/pointedly implied…

                  I am looking for foundational passages upon which theological doctrines can be derived.
                  Biblically all men were cursed to die through Adam whether they deserved it sin or not, even Jesus. Although Jesus as fully human was without sin, so he's at least one exception to Romans 3:23. Other exceptions might be little children.

                  The New Covenant as explained in Jeremiah first says that the curse of Adam is lifted, children no longer die for sins of the father. After that the curse of death for one's own sins is lifted, if we repent and receive mercy. If not we go to destruction in the Lake of Fire as alluded to in Revelation.

                  So aside from exceptions, I don't think you need a specific verse to say that all who sin deserve destruction, since the Bible as a whole gets to the point that even though we deserve it, we can receive mercy from Jesus to save us from destruction from Adam's sin as well as our own.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by dacristoy View Post
                    Does the bible ever actually say that “all men are evil/sinners and deserve destruction” or is this actually an extrapolation of Augustine. If so, then from where in the bible is this ever actually/pointedly implied…

                    I am looking for foundational passages upon which theological doctrines can be derived.
                    "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." -- Romans 3:10, 11.

                    ". . . He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. . . ." -- John 3:18-20.
                    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
                      “There are two kinds of people in the world: the conscious dogmatists and the unconscious dogmatists. I have always found myself that the unconscious dogmatists were by far the most dogmatic.” ―Gilbert K. Chesterton
                      and?

                      Bring Gilbert in here, I'd love to chat with him.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                        "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." -- Romans 3:10, 11.

                        ". . . He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. . . ." -- John 3:18-20.
                        Just ignore all those verses that say Christ came to make people righteous..... Guess that says a lot about your quest for truth. :P

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by JohnnyP View Post
                          Biblically all men were cursed to die through Adam whether they deserved it sin or not, even Jesus. Although Jesus as fully human was without sin, so he's at least one exception to Romans 3:23. Other exceptions might be little children.

                          The New Covenant as explained in Jeremiah first says that the curse of Adam is lifted, children no longer die for sins of the father. After that the curse of death for one's own sins is lifted, if we repent and receive mercy. If not we go to destruction in the Lake of Fire as alluded to in Revelation.

                          So aside from exceptions, I don't think you need a specific verse to say that all who sin deserve destruction, since the Bible as a whole gets to the point that even though we deserve it, we can receive mercy from Jesus to save us from destruction from Adam's sin as well as our own.
                          Do you believe that in death men suffer destruction? Is there a difference between the concepts of death and destruction? Destruction negates the concept of eternal judgment.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by HeteroDoxic View Post
                            Just ignore all those verses that say Christ came to make people righteous..... Guess that says a lot about your quest for truth. :P
                            What do you mean?

                            2 Corinthians 5:21. ". . . For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."
                            . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                            . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                            Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by dacristoy View Post
                              Do you believe that in death men suffer destruction? Is there a difference between the concepts of death and destruction? Destruction negates the concept of eternal judgment.
                              By destruction I mean the Second Death in the Lake of Fire, annihilation not eternal torment.

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