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All men are evil/sinners, deserve to be destroyed

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  • All men are evil/sinners, deserve to be destroyed

    Does the bible ever actually say that “all men are evil/sinners and deserve destruction” or is this actually an extrapolation of Augustine. If so, then from where in the bible is this ever actually/pointedly implied…

    I am looking for foundational passages upon which theological doctrines can be derived.

  • #2
    I don't know if any passages use wording like that but the principle can easily be derived from Romans 3:23 and Romans 6:23.
    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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    • #3
      Originally posted by dacristoy View Post
      Does the bible ever actually say that “all men are evil/sinners and deserve destruction” or is this actually an extrapolation of Augustine. If so, then from where in the bible is this ever actually/pointedly implied…

      I am looking for foundational passages upon which theological doctrines can be derived.
      Use Ephesians:
      we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
        I don't know if any passages use wording like that but the principle can easily be derived from Romans 3:23 and Romans 6:23.
        At what point did God determine men worthy of redemption. Gleaned from John 3:16...

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        • #5
          Originally posted by dacristoy View Post
          At what point did God determine men worthy of redemption. Gleaned from John 3:16...
          I don't think the Bible says that men are worthy of redemption.
          "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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          • #6
            Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
            I don't think the Bible says that men are worthy of redemption.
            How on earth could you be worthy of redemption? Sounds contradictory. Unless you think we earn our way to heaven, in which case, why did Jesus have to die?
            If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
              How on earth could you be worthy of redemption? Sounds contradictory. Unless you think we earn our way to heaven, in which case, why did Jesus have to die?
              "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

              Comment


              • #8
                God values men highly, because we are His children, made in His image:

                Acts 17:24“The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; 25nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; 26and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His children.’


                Quote
                The sixth commandment enjoins the preservation of human life itself, and the orderliness expressed in life. Human beings created in the image of God replicate on earth in their own persons a special form of divine order on earth. Their degradation into the disorder of death is a most serious disruption of divine order.

                http://www.frame-poythress.org/ebook...-law-of-moses/

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by footwasher View Post
                  God values men highly, because we are His children, made in His image:

                  Acts 17:24“The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; 25nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; 26and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His children.’


                  Quote
                  The sixth commandment enjoins the preservation of human life itself, and the orderliness expressed in life. Human beings created in the image of God replicate on earth in their own persons a special form of divine order on earth. Their degradation into the disorder of death is a most serious disruption of divine order.

                  http://www.frame-poythress.org/ebook...-law-of-moses/
                  Well, duh. We're just saying that we didn't deserve redemption for our sins, but God redeems us anyway if we accept the offer. How could you deserve to be redeemed? If you didn't do anything wrong, what would you need redeeming from?
                  If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

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                  • #10
                    Redemption from the body of death, which is now finished, thanks be to Christ Jesus:

                    Romans 7:14For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

                    ******21I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!


                    Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                    Well, duh. We're just saying that we didn't deserve redemption for our sins, but God redeems us anyway if we accept the offer. How could you deserve to be redeemed? If you didn't do anything wrong, what would you need redeeming from?

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                    • #11
                      There is a short sightedness in this discussion. We are not given all knowledge (in spite of what FarEastBirt seems to think). We do not know why God created man the way he did. It was his pleasure to do so. We can never, even in glory, come close to understanding all about God. He is not super strong, super smart man. He is so far above us we can not even comprehend the distance.
                      Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

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                      • #12
                        Jed is right. Spoken like a true apophatic.
                        βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                        ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                        אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                          I don't think the Bible says that men are worthy of redemption.
                          How about in the sense of man's redemption is worthy of His effort to achieve?
                          "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

                          "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                            Well, duh. We're just saying that we didn't deserve redemption for our sins, but God redeems us anyway if we accept the offer. How could you deserve to be redeemed? If you didn't do anything wrong, what would you need redeeming from?
                            We're not worthy of redemption, still God is worthy to redeem us...

                            My question is where in scripture is "worthy of destruction applicable before the application of redemption". I believe that the bible does teach that those that reject the salvation that Christ brings are worthy of destruction... But does the bible position us as worthy of destruction before the offer of salvation is rejected. IOW, which comes first, the chicken or the egg...

                            Obviously we do not merit salvation, it is the gift of God... That point is foundationally made, is the point of worthy of destruction foundationally made in scripture...
                            Last edited by dacristoy; 05-09-2014, 08:06 PM.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by dacristoy View Post
                              Does the bible ever actually say that “all men are evil/sinners and deserve destruction” or is this actually an extrapolation of Augustine. If so, then from where in the bible is this ever actually/pointedly implied…

                              I am looking for foundational passages upon which theological doctrines can be derived.
                              You could refer to all the passages that flat-out say that baptism cleanses us of original sin.
                              Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.

                              -Thomas Aquinas

                              I love to travel, But hate to arrive.

                              -Hernando Cortez

                              What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?

                              -Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor

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