What is the experience known as 'Receiving the Holy Spirit'?

[tabibito]

That somewhat depends on how you translate the "en" in 1 Cor. 12:13.

I was thinking of the progressive tenses when in my remarks, not the perfect, (enduring results after the done did that); but yes, I stand corrected.


ETA: and I stand corrected again - it is aorist, completed action (without reference to continuance); not perfect.

[Esther]

The primary difference between John's baptism and baptism into Christ appears to be that John's was a baptism for repentance of sins, where baptism into Christ is a baptism for remission of sins.

Thanks! Repentance and remission! I used those 2 words interchangeably in my understanding.

[tabibito]

Thanks! Repentance and remission! I used those 2 words interchangeably in my understanding.

Yup: it is only recently that I was able to isolate why Paul found it necessary to rebaptise people who had been baptised into John's baptism. Simple enough to differentiate once the difference has been identified though: cancer doesn't go into repentance.

[Esther]

I can tell you from my experience, and many other people have had the same, that the experience and result of being baptized in the Spirit many years after salvation was similar to that of being born again: that brand-new-world-and-life-and-heart feeling.

Also like some other people, I received tongues in a separate experience: over two years later, in my case. And while tongues are definitely important and powerful, they aren't nearly as important as the fruit of the Spirit. Tongues are an important ability or tool from the Spirit, but the fruit is His character. So it makes sense that tongues can be separate and later and are not a required part of the baptism, as they are less essential.

Thank you again for your very helpful post, my friend.

Catherine Marshall waited 17 years I think before the Lord gave her the gift of praying in the spirit. She witnessed people all around her receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit and praying in tongues and yearned for this gift. This is very encouraging in a way, but 17 years!

The scriptural pattern is that each documented case in the NT of people receiving the baptism in the Holy Spirit, is always followed by the accompanying evidence of speaking in tongues.

[footwasher]

Sorry, my friend, but it's not what happened. You are leaving out crucial facts that don't fit your theory, adding in new ones as needed, and mixing and matching as convenient.

Here's your recipe for receiving the Holy Spirit, from your OP:

With Peter, you are changing your requirements and recipe. Your OP says that he should have received the HS on the water, "immediately ...this is ...receiving the Holy Spirit," but now you say that he had to wait until Pentecost after all. ??

Excellent! I like replies that get down to brass tacks, the nitty-gritty, that address the salient points.

I said:
'He saw suffering and rescue, even from drowning.'

After that, He got a concentrated dose of revelation of suffering and rescue on Pentecost, through the indwelling by the Holy Spirit.

Notice I said that Peter saw suffering and rescue, upon leaving his nets. Suffering and rescue is the faith creating ministry of the Holy Spirit.

Then at Pentecost, he received an additional, concentrated, dose of the Holy Spirit, a booster, if you like, that finally tipped him to become born again, have a different spirit. Didn't he change from a fearful follower to a courageous leader, like Caleb, who also had had a different spirit (Numbers 14.24)? I see the additional dose as a movie clip, flashing before his eyes, of all the heroes of faith of Hebrews 11 being rescued by God! It may have been in an unintelligible language, but the text says tongues edify the speaker, so that is what really matters.

Judas had learned that God could rescue Jesus from the authorities, so he stepped out in bold faith to instigate the hoped-for Messianic War of Deliverance, depending on God's saving power. According to your theory he should have succeeded. But he didn't. Therefore, your theory is deficient or in error. It doesn't fit all the facts.

No! Judas was edified by seeing God rescue Jesus whenever he picked up a cross, attempted a difficult task, took on a problem. However, the other influence, fear of danger, won over the trust in God that the revelations built up! The Israelites saw God rescue from Pharoah, like Abraham. However, their fear of dying, injury, won over the trust that had been built up. They failed when asked to show they had faith, by not going to face the Canaanites. Abraham passed when asked to sacrifice Isaac. Judas failed when asked to continue with Jesus. At no point did he 'step out in bold faith to instigate the hoped-for Messianic War of Deliverance, depending on God's saving power.' He stepped back, went back to his worldly ways, unlike the others, who had burned all their bridges and were promised the Kingdom:

Luke 18
28Peter said to him, “We have left all we had to follow you!”

29“Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”

The problem is even more glaring when we look at the experience of Jesus.

The Bible is clear that Jesus received the baptism of the Holy Spirit before he had his huge test of faith. His huge test of faith was in the Wilderness. But He had already been baptized in the Holy Spirit. This is the complete opposite of what your theory states, my friend.

So . . . your theory doesn't work in all situations where it should work, so it must be missing some key facts. At best, it's incomplete. Which isn't surprising, since it ignores so many key and plain statements of Scripture by experts in the subject, as I noted in an earlier post.

Which you yourself show, when you again switch and give the biblical order of cause and effect, which is the reverse of yours

Baptism of the Holy Spirit happens when we believe that the Kingdom of God has come, as promised. When Jesus believed, didn't he receive the Holy Spirit, first as the descending of the dove upon him, and continuing, by being led into the wilderness, like Abraham and Israel? His edification, the building up of his faith, was in the wilderness, when angels brought him food and water.

Once again, as with Jesus, this is the opposite order of your theory. Your theory says that Revelation of Rescue + Faith = the requirement for the baptism of the Holy Spirit. But here you've reversed that―you now say that the already-indwelling Spirit gave Peter and the disciples the faith and boldness.

Exactly as the Bible and I say, my friend, but contrary to your theory. ;-)

My friend, I commend your efforts, and your realization that much of the standard evangelical narrative of the Holy Spirit is greatly flawed or lacking, and your desire to fix that. I totally agree with you there!

But your theory also has major flaws and holes, as I've shown. This is primarily because you are ignoring the plain statements of Scripture that speak directly to the topic. Which is always a really bad idea.

I never said 'Revelation of Rescue + Faith = the requirement for the baptism of the Holy Spirit.' Rather, I said:

'C. God is happy to be their God, because these believers are not shallow, shortsighted,only thinking of immediate gratification, and promises them a different country, situation, where gains indeed do not rust and perish, provided they have faith that He can bring them into that situation.

D. People believe that God is able to bring them into that situation, and immediately God gives them experiences that teach them He can carry them through any situation without harm. This is called receiving the Holy Spirit, drinking from the Holy Spirit.'

Summarising, God gave suffering to those who believed His word, that the Kingdom could be accessed, because He wanted them to see His great work in rescuing. They needed to see this, so that their faith in Him would build up, because in the Kingdom, they would have to pick up the cross everyday, like Moses, to shoehorn His People out of the world/Egypt.

[tabibito]

Catherine Marshall waited 17 years I think before the Lord gave her the gift of praying in the spirit. She witnessed people all around her receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit and praying in tongues and yearned for this gift. This is very encouraging in a way, but 17 years!

The scriptural pattern is that each documented case in the NT of people receiving the baptism in the Holy Spirit, is always followed by the accompanying evidence of speaking in tongues.

? It doesn't seem that a person who holds the gift to heal, or to prophesy, would necessarily be able to also speak in tongues. As Paul says in 1Cor 12:7-10

7 But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.
8 For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit;
9 to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,
10 and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues.

and in vv 29:30
29 All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they?
30 All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they?

[footwasher]

? It doesn't seem that a person who holds the gift to heal, or to prophesy, would necessarily be able to also speak in tongues. As Paul says in 1Cor 12:7-10

7 But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.
8 For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit;
9 to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,
10 and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues.

and in vv 29:30
29 All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they?
30 All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they?

Keep your eye on the ball!

Believe the Gospel
Receive the Spirit (the enactment of suffering and rescue, cross and resurrection, metonymised as 'Christ')
See the rescues
Believe God is able and willing to always rescue
Prove your faith has been strengthened
Be allowed into the Kingdom, where different gifts are given!

Ep 4
8This is why it says: “When he ascended on high, he took many captives and gave gifts to his people.”

[tabibito]

Keep your eye on the ball!

Believe the Gospel
Receive the Spirit (the enactment of suffering and rescue, cross and resurrection, metonymised as 'Christ')
See the rescues
Believe God is able and willing to always rescue Prove your faith has been strengthened
Be allowed into the Kingdom, where different gifts are given!

Ep 4
8This is why it says: “When he ascended on high, he took many captives and gave gifts to his people.”

Can you be a bit less cryptic?

[footwasher]

Can you be a bit less cryptic?

We become empowered, can lay down our lives, only to pick it up again, through the finger of God, only by entering the Kingdom!

We don't get empowered when we receive the Holy Spirit. The only thing that happens is we get ring side seats to the enactment of suffering and rescue, cross and resurrection!

This is a slippery revelation, requires repetition in different ways for hearers to suss it out, because different people respond to different ways of putting things.

Also, it requires reflection, time to digest the information download... sometimes I worry it will never happen, that the penny will ne'er drop.

Of course, ironically, when you are IN the Kingdom, things become clear immediately.

Do persist.

[Esther]

? It doesn't seem that a person who holds the gift to heal, or to prophesy, would necessarily be able to also speak in tongues. As Paul says in 1Cor 12:7-10

7 But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.
8 For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit;
9 to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,
10 and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues.

and in vv 29:30
29 All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they?
30 All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they?

Yes this is the operating of the gifts in the church.
On each occasion where the NT documents the baptism of the Holy Spirit, the people all started speaking in other tongues. (They were not in church).

[tabibito]

We become empowered, can lay down our lives, only to pick it up again, through the finger of God, only by entering the Kingdom!

We don't get empowered when we receive the Holy Spirit. The only thing that happens is we get ring side seats to the enactment of suffering and rescue, cross and resurrection!

When then, do we get the capacity/power to become sons of God? to overcome sin? to give witness of God to others and in our lives? Or was all of that (or any part of it) reserved only for the founding disciples? Acts 1:4-8.

[footwasher]

When then, do we get the capacity/power to become sons of God? to overcome sin? to give witness of God to others and in our lives? Or was all of that (or any part of it) reserved only for the founding disciples? Acts 1:4-8.

Adam was supposed to do great works and be so impressed with God's help which those acts required, that he would begin to take up the task of subduing his body. The result, as the Jewish sages explained, would have been his having a mind that served God, and a body that could obey the noble impulse of that mind. The sages say that if Adam had waited, till the Sabbath, God would have given him that mind, the ability to know good from evil.

Because Adam jumped the gun, humanity has a mind that has noble impulses, but it's chained to a body that still can't obey those noble impulses.

Romans 7
24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, with my mind I serve the law of God, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

Romans 8
19For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed.

Christ made it possible for believers to enter the Kingdom, the spiritual situation where they were in the presence of God, and could re-start the job of subduing Creation.

He did it by nailing the law to the cross: where there is no law, there is no transgression. We can stand in God's presence, ascend His Holy Mountain, walk with Him in the cool of the day like Adam did, all required to subdue Creation.

In other words, you can become sinless, in principle, by becoming perfect, or by removing the accusing finger of the Law.

Adam was sinless by not attaining majority, so had immunity from law, like minors, those under the age of 15, have immunity from Law (as also the mentally handicapped). We are sinless in the Kingdom, in principle, because Jesus de-fanged the Law.

Now we just have to make that technical purity a reality, by putting to death the deeds of the body, through the finger of God, available in the Kingdom.

Luke 11
20But if I drive out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

Matt 12
27And if I drive out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. 28But if it is by the Spirit of God that I drive out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

[footwasher]

Also:

Romans 8
13For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

Paul fully expected bog standard, garden variety, believers, like you and I, to have gifts, to be lights guiding people like Rahab and Nicodemus to God. The Greek in the following, as I have mentioned before, is idiotes:

1 Cor 14
24But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an ungifted man enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all; 25the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so he will fall on his face and worship God, declaring that God is certainly among you.

1 Corinthians 14:24 N-NMS GRK: ἄπιστος ἢ ἰδιώτης ἐλέγχεται ὑπὸ
NAS: or an ungifted man enters,
KJV: or [one] unlearned, he is convinced
INT: unbeliever or uninstructed he is convicted by

2 Corinthians 11:6 N-NMS
GRK: δὲ καὶ ἰδιώτης τῷ λόγῳ
NAS: if I am unskilled in speech,
KJV: But though [I be] rude in speech, yet
INT: however even unpolished in speech [I am]

Interlinear Greek • Interlinear Hebrew • Strong's Numbers • Englishman's Greek Concordance • Englishman's Hebrew Concordance • Parallel Texts

Concordance Entries
Strong's Greek 2399
5 Occurrences

ἰδιῶται — 2 Occ.
ἰδιώτης — 2 Occ.
ἰδιώτου — 1 Occ.
Additional Entries
ἰδίας — 6 Occ.
ἰδίῳ — 7 Occ.
ἰδίων — 7 Occ.
ἴδιοι — 1 Occ.
ἰδίοις — 10 Occ.
ἴδιον — 18 Occ.
ἴδιος — 1 Occ.
ἰδίου — 11 Occ.
ἰδίους — 5 Occ.
ἰδιῶται — 2 Occ.
ἰδιώτου — 1 Occ.
Ἰδουμαίας — 1 Occ.
ἱδρὼς — 1 Occ.
Ἰεζάβελ — 1 Occ.
ἱερατείαν — 1 Occ.
ἱερατείας — 1 Occ.
ἱεράτευμα — 2 Occ.
ἱερατεύειν — 1 Occ.
Ἰερεμίαν — 1 Occ.
Ἰερεμίου — 2 Occ.


Englishman's Concordance
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[footwasher]

In the interest of being 'less cryptic':

Joshua 2
8Before the spies lay down for the night, Rahab went up on the roof 9and said to them, “I know that the LORD has given you this land and that the fear of you has fallen on us, so that all who dwell in the land are melting in fear of you. 10For we have heard how the LORD dried up the waters of the Red Seab before you when you came out of Egypt, and what you did to Sihon and Og, the two kings of the Amorites across the Jordan, whom you devoted to destruction.c 11When we heard this, our hearts melted and everyone’s courage failed because of you, for the LORD your God is God in the heavens above and on the earth below.

John 3
1Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a leader of the Jews. 2He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs You are doing if God were not with him.”

3Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.a”

I think I have shown how being in the Kingdom has two dimensions of 'subduing', an inward, and an outward. We subdue ourselves, each believer being a microcosm of the universe, and we subdue those who see the light of God guiding others to Him revealed in us, like Rahab and Nicodemus, when we pick up the crosses God prepared for us in advance to pick up ( Ephesians 2.10 ):

John 9
1Now as Jesus was passing by, He saw a man blind from birth, 2and His disciples asked Him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”

3Jesus answered, “Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but this happened so that the works of God would be displayed in him. 4While it is daytime, we must doa the works of Him who sent Me. Night is coming, when no one can work. 5While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”

[footwasher]

Yes, God creates problems, makes evil, darkens Scripture, for us to solve, heal, cure, explain:

Isaiah 45
7I create evil, make darkness, I, the Lord, do all that.

So that people who see His finger, His help, in the solving, turn to Him, to be able to receive the fulfilment of the promise to Abraham, to be made blessings to the world:

John 11
1At this time a man named Lazarus was sick. He lived in Bethany, the village of Mary and her sister Martha. 2(Mary, whose brother Lazarus was sick, was to anoint the Lord with perfume and wipe His feeta with her hair.) 3So the sisters sent word to Jesus, “Lord, the one You love is sick.”

4When Jesus heard this, He said, “This sickness will not end in death. No, it is for the glory of God, so that the Son of God may be glorified through it.”

So the schema to subdue is:

Get into the Kingdom
Pick up crosses
Be rescued
Subdue creation

John 12
32And when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw the world to Myself.

Let's not be like these people, who only wanted bread, from which they would hunger again, but be like Nicodemus, who wanted the fulfilment of the promise to Abraham, available to his children, identified as those with faith:

John 6
26Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, it is not because you saw these signs that you are looking for Me, but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. 27Do not work for food that perishes, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on Him God the Father has placed His seal of approval.”