Aspects of Atonement: What Did Jesus' Death on the Tree Accomplish?

[robrecht]

Apparently, in his schema, the Church is the source of salvation. Faith will not initiate the Kingdom of God, becoming a blessing to the world.

Instead grace administered by the Church will ensure entry into heaven.

http://wscal.edu/academics/faculty-bio/michael-s-horton

[footwasher]

So let's hear how you have become a blessing to the world.

[robrecht]

So let's hear how you have become a blessing to the world.

When you renounce your use of ad hominems and misrepresentation, I will engage you in discussion again. Follow the example of your hero.

[footwasher]

Scripture rebukes those who store treasure where moth and rust attack the upholstery and the metal.

[The Remonstrant]

It is sad to see the downturn in the tenor of conversation here.

[robrecht]

It is sad to see the downturn in the tenor of conversation here.

I agree. It is always better to discuss the topic at hand rather than criticizing other people.

[footwasher]

I agree. It is always better to discuss the topic at hand rather than criticizing other people.

[footwasher]

Requiring closing of all loopholes, escape routes, before you concede defeat.

Originally Posted by footwasher
I repeat:

Your inclusion of the second statement indicated that a sinner's faith is not only secondary, but counterproductive.

Robrecht wrote:

Please take that up with St Paul, whom I was quoting. I think it is important to look at all of the elements of the immediate context to understand Paul's meaning.

Ungraciously slipping in a counter, even after conceding you had posted that you thought Paul taught the faith of sinner's was counter productive. When it is widely understood that Paul was endeavoring to teach no one gets a free pass as far as requiring redemption was concerned.

This is the problem discussing stuff with non evangelicals. You have to bring them up to speed first.

[robrecht]

This is, once again, a misrepresentation of my view:

Requiring closing of all loopholes, escape routes, before you concede defeat.

Originally Posted by footwasher
I repeat:

Your inclusion of the second statement indicated that a sinner's faith is not only secondary, but counterproductive.

Robrecht wrote:

Ungraciously slipping in a counter, even after conceding you had posted that you thought Paul taught the faith of sinner's was counter productive. When it is widely understood that Paul was endeavoring to teach no one gets a free pass as far as requiring redemption was concerned.

This is the problem discussing stuff with non evangelicals. You have to bring them up to speed first.

I never, ever said our faith is counterproductive.

[robrecht]

So why avoid discussing my view ...

I am avoiding all discussion with you because of your negative focus on my person. I will however correct your continued misrepresentations.

I find it offputing that you believe that denying a charge is enough ...

I clarified my meaning when I saw how you misunderstood one element of my argument taken out of context. In polite conversation, a clarification of one's meaning is sufficient. If, however, you want to bring "charges" against me, I no longer consider this a polite conversation.

[footwasher]

This is, once again, a misrepresentation of my view:

I never, ever said our faith is counterproductive.

Weaseling out again?

You understand Paul as saying that.

Your view is the same, unless you believe Paul's views are errant.

[robrecht]

Weaseling out again?

You understand Paul as saying that.

Your view is the same, unless you believe Paul's views are errant.

False. I have never, ever understood Paul to be saying that our faith is counterproductive.

[footwasher]

Robrecht wrote:

Please take that up with St Paul, whom I was quoting. I think it is important to look at all of the elements of the immediate context to understand Paul's meaning.

You have either a problem with communication or comprehension.

False. I have never, ever understood Paul to be saying that our faith is counterproductive.

[robrecht]

Robrecht wrote:

You have either a problem with communication or comprehension.

I have no difficulty understanding what I think and what I have written. And I never said that our faith is counterproductive. Nor did Paul say so. Nor did I ever claim that Paul said our faith is counterproductive. That you think I have is apparently only an absurd fantasy of yours.

[footwasher]

Originally Posted by footwasher
I repeat:

Your inclusion of the second statement indicated that a sinner's faith is not only secondary, but counterproductive.

robrech wrote:
Please take that up with St Paul, whom I was quoting. I think it is important to look at all of the elements of the immediate context to understand Paul's meaning.

I am exhausted with teasing out the various interpretational options afforded by your statements. In the above, is your view:

1.Robrecht said to footwasher:
You say I claim the faith of sinners is counterproductive. Paul says the faith of all is secondary, because all have sinned, so really, pistes Christou really means the faithfulness of Christ. Such a mean, low faith could hardly be the initiator of the manifestation of God's righteousness, His atoning action, in our lives. I don't makes 'em up, I only reads 'em. If you have a problem, take it up with Paul.

2.Robrecht never said to footwasher:
You say I claim the faith of sinners is counterproductive. Paul says the faith of all is secondary, because all have sinned, so really, pistes Christou really means the faithfulness of Christ. Such a mean, low faith could hardly be the initiator of the manifestation of God's righteousness, His atoning action, in our lives. I don't makes 'em up, I only reads 'em. If you have a problem, take it up with Paul.

Which is it?