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Aspects of Atonement: What Did Jesus' Death on the Tree Accomplish?

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  • Aspects of Atonement: What Did Jesus' Death on the Tree Accomplish?

    Link:
    http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...ed=1#post27647


    Originally posted by hedrick View Post
    I don't think this is really a question about open theism. Rather, it's a question about the Incarnation. Was Jesus really human with human limitations? It's pretty clear from other parts of the Gospel that he knew he was going to have to die. Even if God doesn't determine all details of the future, surely this is one case where he did. If we were computers, it would be silly to pray for a cup to pass when you knew it wouldn't, and in fact couldn't if you were going to complete a mission you had accepted. But for a human it's completely natural, I think.

    I think the Gospels suggest that whatever certainty Jesus had about God to some extent was obscured during this period. While there are other ways to explain it, I think his cry from the cross that God had abandoned him was real, that as the person taking the consequences of our sins, he was for a time separated from the consciousness of God. I understand that this is paradoxical for someone who is the incarnation of God, but our understanding of what it meant for Jesus to be identified with God needs to be based on the Biblical account.
    Originally posted by The Remonstrant View Post
    I do not personally believe the Father ever abandoned the Son. In his angst Jesus may have felt as though he had, but the Father and Son are/were one (not in the modalistic sense, though). Jesus' cry on the tree resonates with the suffering of God's righteous servants throughout the centuries.

    There was never a break in the trinity. God vindicated Jesus by raising him from the dead. Never was the Father angry with the Son, nor did he use him as an object to vent his wrath out on.1 For those inclined to believe otherwise, I would suggest they read Psalm 22 in its entirety. Verse 24 is especially relevant: "For he [God] has not despised or abhorred the affliction of the afflicted, and he has not hidden his face from him, but has heard, when he cried to him" (ESV2). Jesus' own words in John's Gospel also confirm this interpretation.

    "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he, and that I do nothing on my own authority, but speak just as the Father taught me. And he who sent me is with me. He has not left me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to him." (John 8:28,29)

    This would include the cross.


    Notes

    1 Many evangelicals will find this statement unsettling as they believe Jesus was literally punished by the Father on the cross in order to pay a sin debt (either for the elect's sake or the whole world).

    2 All Scripture quotations are taken from the English Standard Version, emphasis added.
    Originally posted by RBerman View Post
    This makes me wonder what you think the purpose of Jesus' death was, but that sounds like a topic for another thread, if you're so inclined.
    This will set the stage for forthcoming posts addressing the purpose(s) of Jesus' death on the cross. (Obviously this veers off the topic of "Open Theism". Hence the new thread.)
    Last edited by The Remonstrant; 03-10-2014, 07:30 PM.
    For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

  • #2
    Were you coming back to this topic, Remonstrant?

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    • #3
      Originally posted by RBerman View Post
      Were you coming back to this topic, Remonstrant?
      Yes, I will need to post some reflections this week (I hope).
      For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by The Remonstrant
        Never was the Father angry with the Son, nor did he use him as an object to vent his wrath out on.
        But see Isaiah 53:
        Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
        and though the LORD makes his life an offering for sin,
        he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
        and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand. (Is 53:10)

        Also: the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed. (Is 53:5)

        Yes, Jesus was punished for our sins.

        Blessings, Lee
        "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

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        • #5
          What Did Jesus' Death on the Cross Accomplish?

          Well! Obviously, it put an end to the truancy of the sacrificial system of the Jews. Several times in the OT YHWH declares he did not want sacrifices but mercy...

          Also see Ezekiel 18 where YHWH declares mankind's judgements as in error, for YHWH declares that the sins of the Father cannot be passed onto the son, nor the sins of the son be passed onto the father. So from this scripture it can be deduced that Jesus' suffering and death had no atoning benefit, except in the context of demonstrating to us obedience to his Father, and acting as our example...that said the kinsman redeemer (the penalty of sin is death) is an entirely different subject...the Son freeing us from the slavery of sin (of course we can resell ourselves, our choice to accept the freedom granted...).

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          • #6
            In John's Gospel:

            But one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, “You know nothing at all. Nor do you understand that it is better for you that one man should die for the people, not that the whole nation should perish.” He did not say this of his own accord, but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, and not for the nation only, but also to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad. So from that day on they made plans to put him to death.
            It was Caiaphas who had advised the Jews that it would be expedient that one man should die for the people.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Paprika View Post
              In John's Gospel: But one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, “You know nothing at all. Nor do you understand that it is better for you that one man should die for the people, not that the whole nation should perish.” He did not say this of his own accord, but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, and not for the nation only, but also to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad. So from that day on they made plans to put him to death.

              It was Caiaphas who had advised the Jews that it would be expedient that one man should die for the people.
              True! But according to A.John it was Caiaphas' father-in-law, the (dethroned) high priest Annas who tried and condemned Jesus (Jn 18:13-24). Caiaphas' only role was as the legally appointed magistrate - only he could take the case to Pilate. I've seen it argued that he was forced to do so by his father-in-law and his cohorts, after all Caiaphas' position was dependent on their support - true or not, it is an interesting speculation, especially given the cites you provided and especially that " being high priest that year he prophesied"...

              In short, Matthew, Luke & Mark not being eye witnesses to the events got it all wrong. A.John being our only direct witness, gives us an insight into the workings of the Temple, the Sanhedrin and Jewish custom, is our only reliable witness...and he tells us that the atrocities inflicted on Christ were Annas' work...not Caiaphas...

              Of interest: Annas and his family ruled the temple for decades, all of his sons were high priest at one time or another (cp. Lk 3:2; Acts 4:6). The Talmud curses their memory, mainly because of their corruption and cruelty...
              Last edited by apostoli; 03-27-2014, 02:40 PM.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by apostoli
                So from this scripture it can be deduced that Jesus' suffering and death had no atoning benefit, except in the context of demonstrating to us obedience to his Father, and acting as our example...
                So is it your official position that the mosaic law does not allow sins to be atoned for via sacrifice?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                  So is it your official position that the mosaic law does not allow sins to be atoned for via sacrifice?
                  It is my official position that Hydrox are superior to Oreos.
                  For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by The Remonstrant View Post
                    It is my official position that Hydrox are superior to Oreos.
                    Now, that is a false teaching.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                      So is it your official position that the mosaic law does not allow sins to be atoned for via sacrifice?
                      If memory serves, Apostoli has an idiosyncratic take on the Old Testament, thinking that it documents what Moses said should be done, but not what God actually wanted done.
                      Last edited by RBerman; 03-27-2014, 10:44 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          My official position is that in both OT and NT, God wants primarily repentance. Ps 51 and passages in the prophets say that sacrifice is not necessary. Thus I tend to think it is effectively a sacrament, a way of making repentance more real for the person, but not strictly speaking necessary.

                          Jesus' words of institution, Rom 6, and Heb 9-10 all regard Jesus' death as a covenant sacrifice, to establish the covenant of Jer 31:31, writing the Law into our hearts. Thus I see the purpose of Jesus' death as being primarily to change us, rather than to change God. Of course that doesn't remove the vicarious element. He did suffer punishment on our behalf. (Punishment is what happens when there isn't repentance, and at times may be useful as an adjunct to repentance.) I rather like Calvin's discussion of the atonement. He sees Jesus' obedience as the key. Not just his obedience in death, but during his entire life. That becomes ours because in faith we are united to Christ is what he calls a "community of righteousness."

                          Of course historically different atonement theories have seen the atonement directed at us, God, Satan, and even the Accounting Office. Some of these (particularly ransom theory) seem to me to be the result of taking metaphors too literally. Ransom is a great way to talk about Jesus' death until you ask who the ransom is paid to.
                          Last edited by hedrick; 03-27-2014, 10:42 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Very true, hedrick. Sometimes it seems as if the entirety of theology is but a misunderstanding of metaphor.
                            βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                            ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                            אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by hedrick View Post
                              My official position is that in both OT and NT, God wants primarily repentance. Ps 51 and passages in the prophets say that sacrifice is not necessary. Thus I tend to think it is effectively a sacrament, a way of making repentance more real for the person, but not strictly speaking necessary.

                              Jesus' words of institution, Rom 6, and Heb 9-10 all regard Jesus' death as a covenant sacrifice, to establish the covenant of Jer 31:31, writing the Law into our hearts. Thus I see the purpose of Jesus' death as being primarily to change us, rather than to change God. Of course that doesn't remove the vicarious element. He did suffer punishment on our behalf. (Punishment is what happens when there isn't repentance, and at times may be useful as an adjunct to repentance.) I rather like Calvin's discussion of the atonement. He sees Jesus' obedience as the key. Not just his obedience in death, but during his entire life. That becomes ours because in faith we are united to Christ is what he calls a "community of righteousness."

                              Of course historically different atonement theories have seen the atonement directed at us, God, Satan, and even the Accounting Office. Some of these (particularly ransom theory) seem to me to be the result of taking metaphors too literally. Ransom is a great way to talk about Jesus' death until you ask who the ransom is paid to.
                              For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

                              Comment

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