Aspects of Atonement: What Did Jesus' Death on the Tree Accomplish?

[robrecht]

primarily or only by our faith here in this immediate context? Hopefully that will make my meaning clearer.

[robrecht]

When Dr Wallace talks about probability, he is talking about trends. Is pistes christeous faith in Christ or faithfulness of Christ or even a genitive of origin, the faith that comes from Christ. The NT writers make several references to the ascendancy of faith and fulfilment over self effort and failure, so we see that trend. It helps in avoiding the agonizing that the uncertainty you have brings.

I do not brings agonizing. Please see my immediately previous post; it may save you some wasted effort. I am certainly not endorsing any contrary ascendancy of self-effort and failure over faith and fulfillment. But I do believe in an ascendancy of God, Christ, his faithfulness, and grace in general over our faith in Christ and faithfulness. Do you see how that is actually the opposite of endorsing any contrary ascendancy of self-effort and failure over faith and fulfillment?

[footwasher]

The you should have left out your second statement.

God values our faith. He even chose someone who had fallen short to be the Father of many nations. All because he believed God's promise of a son.

primarily or only by our faith here in this immediate context? Hopefully that will make my meaning clearer.

[robrecht]

The you should have left out your second statement.

God values our faith. He even chose someone who had fallen short to be the Father of many nations. All because he believed God's promise of a son.

No, I think the second statement, of Paul not me, is an important part of the immediate context. I certainly believe God values our faith, even 'though I also agree with Paul when he says that we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

[footwasher]

I repeat:

Your inclusion of the second statement indicated that a sinner's faith is not only secondary, but counterproductive.

No, I think the second statement, of Paul not me, is an important part of the immediate context. I certainly believe God values our faith, even 'though I also agree with Paul when he says that we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

[robrecht]

I repeat:

Your inclusion of the second statement indicated that a sinner's faith is not only secondary, but counterproductive.

Please take that up with St Paul, whom I was quoting. I think it is important to look at all of the elements of the immediate context to understand Paul's meaning.

[footwasher]

If you think the context will help your argument, include it and explain it.

We aren't even into the things of heaven yet, mired as we are in the things of this earth.

Wait till we unpack righteousness of God and loyalty.

[robrecht]

Wright is right in faulting Luther for believing Judaism's sin was holding to salvation through (good) works, but where Wright deviates from correct reasoning is in assuming the solution to the believers search for eternal life was in doing good works because God will judge believers according to the good works they have done in this life.

Not because there is inherently wrong in doing good works, but in inserting good works into the equation of God's future vindication of those who have faith, by confirming that those who had faith were indeed righteous, through a present favorable judgment, that favorable judgment being the call (election?).

But you do believe that God will judge all of us, even believers, right? I would not diminish the importance of good works of both believers and unbelievers. For believers they are an expression of our explicit faith in God and goodness and love for our neighbor and our enemies. For nonbelievers, even atheists, they are an explicit choice for the good, which is implicitly a choice for all goodness which comes from God.

Much of what you are attributing here to Wright is shared in common by the so-called 'new perspective' on Paul, which is hardly new and which predates Paul, and which does not necessarily endorse a subjective genitive.

Wright errs in translating pistes Christeou as faithfulness of Christ. God's righteousness (being in the right by keeping His promise to Abraham by making the One who had no sin to be sin) is not effected in a believer's life by Christ's faithfulness, but by loyalty. It is through loyalty that a faithfulness that is like Christ's is effected in the life of the believer.

Again, you are practically saying the same thing as me. I just put the primacy on God, grace, and Christ. It is through the faithfulness of Christ that we are given an example and savior in whom we can believe, whose faithfulness we are called to imitate even unto death if necessary, but for most, in living our daily lives faithfully, faith working through love, in all the tedious details of our life that are made marvelous in the light of faith and love.

Rather than just saying that Wright is wrong, can you advance specific arguments for why it is wrong, arguments specifically based upon the text, its language, grammar, and immediate context, for why it is wrong?

[robrecht]

If you think the context will help your argument, include it and explain it.

We aren't even into the things of heaven yet, mired as we are in the things of this earth.

Wait till we unpack righteousness of God and loyalty.

That is precisely what my argument does, if you look at it as a whole. Look at all the elements of the immediate context that I cite, all of which point to the primacy of God and his Christ in the manifestation of God's righteousness.

Aside from the other contexts and the grammatical difficulties here:

• verbal object of a nonactive noun?
• Paul uses a preposition for an objective sense even with an active noun
• εἰς πάντας τοὺς πιστεύοντας (3,22)

Glauben an JEsum Christum), is that:

• the righteousness of God (3,21)
• borne witness to by the law and the prophets (not by us)
• the righteousness of God (3,22)
• who justifies by his grace as a gift (3,24)
• through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus
• whom God put forward as a place of mercy (3,25)
• by his blood
• to make manifest his righteousness
• because of his passing over of sins
• by means of the patience of God (3,26)
• to manifest his righteousness at this time
• to be himself righteous
• the one who makes righteous
• for which we cannot boast (3,27)

• our

Does anyone else see how out of place this objective genitive interpretation is in this context that in so many ways suggests the simpler, more fundamental meaning of the more literal subjective genitive as primary?

[footwasher]

[robrecht]

...

Yet you have two sports cars! Truly, you are not far from the Kingdom of God!

Not!

... I apologize for the directness. Scripture is what it is laid out to be.

Don't apologize for being direct. I've been trying, albeit unsuccessfully, to get you to address the issue directly. Silly and impertinent ad hominems like this, however, do not address the issue of the subjective/objective question. But if that's all you got, I guess that's all you got.

[footwasher]

I'm a member of the board of trustees at a local college that offers both theological as well as secular education.

At a recent seminar, I was asked to correct the mindsets of some of the graduates who had business degrees and had become highly successful, because I am myself a successful businessman.

The study I put in was a huge eye opener to even myself, and highlighted the awkward contradictions mainline denominations have painted themselves into corners with and continue to live with.

I faced ad hominem before you did. It was Scripture that rebuked me.

[robrecht]

I'm a member of the board of trustees at a local college that has offers theological as well as secular education.

At a recent seminar, I was asked to correct the mindsets of some of the graduates who had business degrees and had become highly successful, because I am myself a successful businessman.

The study I put in was a huge eye opener to even myself, and highlighted the awkward contradictions mainline denominations have painted themselves into corners with and continue to live with.

Good for you! I'm glad to hear that you are successful. What college?

[footwasher]

We are affiliated to Westminster. Horton is my hero.

[Renfro]