Originally posted by 37818
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This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.
Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.
However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.
End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.
Millennialism- post-, pre- a-
Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.
From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.
OK folks, let's roll!
Forum Rules: Here
Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.
However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.
End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.
Millennialism- post-, pre- a-
Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.
From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.
OK folks, let's roll!
Forum Rules: Here
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Soul Sleep, ECT, Annihilation: Are the dead conscious or not?
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Originally posted by JohnnyP View PostPoint being again that the NT goes into more detail about various abodes of the dead, the OT is more ambiguous. Again Isaiah 5:14 depicts a temporary Sheol, then its continuation into a larger more eternal burning up of everything in it. Thus every instance of Sheol in the OT must be examined to see what is really indicated, whether temporary abodes of righteous and wicked where consciousness such as the Rich Man's and Abraham's exist, or a more eternal continuation of the temporary Hell in the Lake of Fire where everything is burned up into dust and the dead may not be conscious, which is implied in Ecclesiastes.
As for the lake of fire, I believe Jesus taught this, "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." Where both the body and soul die (Matthew 10:28) the conscious part of man which never dies is called in the singular "worm." See the prophecy of Jesus on the cross, "I am a worm and not a man," Psalm 22:.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View Postfine, that is how you see it. I do not see that way. Isaiah 5:14 figurative language is used. I understand Sheol/Hades/nether world/realm of the dead to be the abode of the dead, now since the ascension of Christ, the place only of the lost dead until the judgment. Along with death and the oceans.
As for the lake of fire, I believe Jesus taught this, "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." Where both the body and soul die (Matthew 10:28) the conscious part of man which never dies is called in the singular "worm." See the prophecy of Jesus on the cross, "I am a worm and not a man," Psalm 22:."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostThe unquenchable fire and the worms that will not die are a clear referent not to Psalm 22, but to Isaiah 66:24, where both are mentioned (and note that what is being described here are corpses).
" . . . for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; . . ." -- Isaiah 66:24.
". . . thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, . . ." -- Isaiah 53:10.
". . . My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? . . . _ . . . But I am a worm, and no man; . . . ." -- Psalm 22:1, ,6.
". . . Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, . . ." -- John 19:28.
" . . . And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost. . . ." -- Luke 23:46.
Summary: Jesus bore our sins on the cross, suffering for our sins, after completing this, His soul is restored and again in fellowship with His Father.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostIt does not say "worms" by "their" plural "worm" singular.
" . . . for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; . . ." -- Isaiah 66:24.
". . . thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, . . ." -- Isaiah 53:10.
". . . My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? . . . _ . . . But I am a worm, and no man; . . . ." -- Psalm 22:1, ,6.
". . . Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, . . ." -- John 19:28.
" . . . And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost. . . ." -- Luke 23:46.
Summary: Jesus bore our sins on the cross, suffering for our sins, after completing this, His soul is restored and again in fellowship with His Father."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostYou really think that the difference in pluralization is significant? What I find far more significant is that this is the only place in the OT where undying worms and unquenchable fire are mentioned at the same time. The difference may well be accounted for by the fact that Isaiah and Matthew were not written in the same language. (I also don't see what Psalm 22 has in common with this passage other than use of the word "worm".)
As for the significance of the singular, compare the "seed" verses "seeds" argument that was made here: "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ." -- Galatians 3:16.
It is my firm understanding the word of God does not teach immortality of the soul (Ezekiel 18:4) but does teach the eternal suffering of the lost (Mark 9:48, Revelation 14:11). And it is my firm understanding Christ's suffering on the cross supports this.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View Post
It is my firm understanding the word of God does not teach immortality of the soul (Ezekiel 18:4) but does teach the eternal suffering of the lost (Mark 9:48, Revelation 14:11). And it is my firm understanding Christ's suffering on the cross supports this.
Using Mark 9:48 to prove that suffering is eternal in Mark 9:48 is circular, but Revelation 14:11 is a much stronger case (along with Revelation 20:10). I almost would want to take that to a new thread all together."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Incidentally, I heard from somebody who looked it up on e-Sword and says that it's "worm" in the Septuagint. But I asked a Bible scholar I know and we'll see what he says.
Update: " Tolatam is the form of the noun here, and I suspect this guy got confused by the pronominal suffix (am). It is a plural pronominal suffix because it is "their" worm. But the noun itself is singular."Last edited by KingsGambit; 01-30-2014, 07:47 PM."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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"Soul sleep", endless conscious torment and annihilation?
*yawn*For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>
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The dead are unconscious
Greetings JohnnyP,
To add a few more verses to the discussion without answering or commenting on other verses already mentioned, the following seem to teach that the dead are not conscious, but have returned to dust. They await the resurrection when Christ returns:
Genesis 3:17-19 (KJV): 17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
Daniel 12:1-3 (KJV): 1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
Isaiah 26:12-14,19 (KJV): 12 LORD, thou wilt ordain peace for us: for thou also hast wrought all our works in us. 13 O LORD our God, other lords beside thee have had dominion over us: but by thee only will we make mention of thy name. 14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.
19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
Kind regards
Trevor
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Originally posted by TrevorL View PostGreetings JohnnyP,
To add a few more verses to the discussion without answering or commenting on other verses already mentioned, the following seem to teach that the dead are not conscious, but have returned to dust. They await the resurrection when Christ returns:
till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake
Originally posted by TrevorL View PostThey are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish
Originally posted by TrevorL View PostThy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
What will you do with the Rich Man who was awake and suffering before Judgment, when his brothers were still alive on earth, if you say the dead are sleeping? That has Jesus talking gibberish.
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Greetings again JohnnyP,
You are imposing your theology on each of the quotations and not allowing these verses to speak for themselves.
Originally posted by JohnnyP View PostTalking about bodies asleep then awakened to Judgment, not spirits asleep.
Talking about Annihilation in the Lake of Fire. If you are talking about before you are saying, they shall not rise for Judgment which doesn't make sense with Revelation 20:13.
What will you do with the Rich Man who was awake and suffering before Judgment, when his brothers were still alive on earth, if you say the dead are sleeping? That has Jesus talking gibberish.
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Originally posted by TrevorL View PostGenesis 3:19 (KJV): till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. Daniel 12:2 (KJV): And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake
Can you explain a contradiction of how Adam's soul from the breath of God suddenly makes its way back to dust from which it was taken?
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Greetings again JohnnyP,
Originally posted by JohnnyP View PostLet's discuss Genesis first. Adam's body came from dust, but his soul came from the breath of God. So it seems you are imposing your theology to change what is said to mean, Adam's soul returns to dust from which it was taken.
Can you explain a contradiction of how Adam's soul from the breath of God suddenly makes its way back to dust from which it was taken?
The Apostle Paul uses this quotation to contrast the natural body as man was created to the spiritual body that will be the result when man is changed from a mortal body to an immortal body by means of the resurrection.
1 Corinthians 15:42-46 (KJV): 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural (or soulical) body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural (or soulical) body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural (or soulical); and afterward that which is spiritual.
Please check Strong's for the link between the word "natural" and "soul".
Kind regards
Trevor
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