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Soul Sleep, ECT, Annihilation: Are the dead conscious or not?

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  • Soul Sleep, ECT, Annihilation: Are the dead conscious or not?

    Here's a thread based on Brett's FB post, bringing it here. My own views to summarize:

    Those in Paradise and and Hades before Judgment are conscious, examples:

    PARADISE

    Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

    Revelation 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
    HADES

    Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

    Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

    Luke 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
    1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

    1 Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

    1 Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient (NOTE HERE I BELIEVE REST OF THIS VERSE IS ANOTHER IDEA AND DOES NOT INDICATE THAT SPIRITS ARE ONLY FROM THE AGE OF NOAH)
    Those in the Lake of Fire after Judgment are unconscious and not living at all, example:

    ANNIHILATION

    Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

  • #2
    I do grant you used a correct term correctly, but you conveniently left out an indispensible aspect on the charges of heresy:

    "Therefore heresy is a species of unbelief, belonging to those who profess the Christian faith, but corrupt its dogmas." - Thomas Aquina

    A heresy is in essence something that hijacks the "brand" of the Church, and pass it off as established teaching. The belief of a soul sleep is hardly compromising any fundamental teaching issued by Christ or the Apostles. Go learn a thing or two on how Latin Canon Law works and set a precedent for all other Church traditions on how the charge of heresies work.

    And as Stan Savill adequeately put, your exegesis of Bible writ is frought with errors, making your charge all the more laughable, and in truth, actually weakens your case. And Dan Holmes is also correct in pointing out your use of the word against the belief of Soul Sleep is too strong of an accusation.
    Ladino, Guatemalan, Hispanic, and Latin, but foremostly, Christian.

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    • #3
      I should point out that your reply was to Brett's charge that consciousness after death is heresy, hopefully he will come on here and repost his OP and discuss.

      Comment


      • #4
        I'm a little confused about the scope of this thread; it's a bunch of doctrinal issues that are well worth discussing individually. I've always wanted to systematically figure out more about what I think about the intermediate state (with the caveat that it's probably nothing we can figure out for sure). I did think that a couple of the passages cited on the Facebook post in support of a conscious intermediate state were comparatively weak, having said that.
        "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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        • #5
          I'm sure many threads on each issue will eventually come to fruition as they did before here, in other areas; I chose Unorthodox Theology for this due to charges of heresy on both sides from FB, I thought it was more appropriate. As I will also create another thread in this area regarding my views of a purgatory, which ties into a conscious intermediate state.

          In the meantime one goal I saw was to discuss which passages refer to an intermediate state in Sheol vs. which refer to a final state in the Lake of Fire. In my view they are often mixed up. For example, that the unrighteous dead are unconscious and know nothing until Judgment, then are consciously weeping and gnashing teeth in the Lake of Fire: my view is the exact opposite. And so on.

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          • #6
            This could go in eschatology--- while many consider such things heresy, our forum definition---which may not reflect the opinion of staffer-- is much broader.
            The State. Ideas so good they have to be mandatory.

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            • #7
              That'd be cool if it can be moved, wanted to play it safe...

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              • #8
                It is my understanding that the firstfruits who have gone on to be with the Lord, are in the New Jerusalem.

                Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
                Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
                Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

                Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

                Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
                Rev 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
                Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
                Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
                Rev 14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
                666 And The Name

                http://https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08D1M48M4/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&qid=1594855398&refinements=p_2 7%3AAlan+Fuller&s=digital-text&sr=1-1&text=Alan+Fuller

                https://sites.google.com/site/apocalypticwisdom/

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by JohnnyP View Post
                  Those in the Lake of Fire after Judgment are unconscious and not living at all, example:

                  ANNIHILATION
                  Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
                  Actually Ecclesiastes 9:5 does not teach annihilationism, rather that the dead in Sheol are no longer able to be aware of this life "under the sun."

                  "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun." -- Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6.

                  see also Ecclesiastes 1:3, 9, 14; 2:3, 11, 17, 18, 19, 20, 22; 3:1, 16; 4:1, 3, 7, 15; 5:13, 18; 6:1, 12; 8:9, 15, 17; 9:3, 6, 9, 11, 13; 10:5. The whole theme of the book.
                  . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

                  . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

                  Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                    Actually Ecclesiastes 9:5 does not teach annihilationism, rather that the dead in Sheol are no longer able to be aware of this life "under the sun."

                    "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun." -- Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6.

                    see also Ecclesiastes 1:3, 9, 14; 2:3, 11, 17, 18, 19, 20, 22; 3:1, 16; 4:1, 3, 7, 15; 5:13, 18; 6:1, 12; 8:9, 15, 17; 9:3, 6, 9, 11, 13; 10:5. The whole theme of the book.
                    The dead know not any thing = Nothing means nothing, which wouldn't be the case of the Rich Man in Sheol, he knew stuff, such as that his brothers were still alive.

                    Neither have they any more a reward = In the end people are rewarded at Judgment according to their works, good and bad.

                    Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished = The dead won't feel anything anymore after Judgment, unlike the Rich Man who still felt things.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by JohnnyP View Post
                      The dead know not any thing = Nothing means nothing, which wouldn't be the case of the Rich Man in Sheol, he knew stuff, such as that his brothers were still alive.

                      Neither have they any more a reward = In the end people are rewarded at Judgment according to their works, good and bad.

                      Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished = The dead won't feel anything anymore after Judgment, unlike the Rich Man who still felt things.
                      So are you agreeing with Ecclesiastes? Showing what it must be understood to mean?
                      . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

                      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

                      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I still take it to mean Annihilation, since the Rich Man in Sheol knew about his brothers in this life, so wouldn't qualify as one dead knowing nothing. If dead in Sheol and Paradise know/feel/etc. (Revelation 6), then it must be dead elsewhere who don't. Which would seem to be Lake of Fire.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by JohnnyP View Post
                          I still take it to mean Annihilation, since the Rich Man in Sheol knew about his brothers in this life, so wouldn't qualify as one dead knowing nothing. If dead in Sheol and Paradise know/feel/etc. (Revelation 6), then it must be dead elsewhere who don't. Which would seem to be Lake of Fire.
                          ". . . Enjoy life with the woman whom you love all the days of your fleeting life which He has given to you under the sun; for this is your reward in life and in your toil in which you have labored under the sun. Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might; for there is no activity or planning or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol where you are going. . . ." -- Ecclesiastes 9:9-10. NASB
                          Last edited by 37818; 01-24-2014, 07:07 PM.
                          . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

                          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

                          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                            ". . . Enjoy life with the woman whom you love all the days of your fleeting life which He has given to you under the sun; for this is your reward in life and in your toil in which you have labored under the sun. Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might; for there is no activity or planning or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol where you are going. . . ." -- Ecclesiastes 9:9-10. NASB
                            The NT is more specific about various abodes of the dead, before and after Judgment: Paradise/Abraham's Bosom/Heaven/New Jerusalem for righteous; Hades/Abyss/Lake of Fire for the wicked. The OT uses Sheol more like an umbrella term, everyone goes there. However depending on context we see some implications of consciousness, and some of unconsciousness and total destruction. Examples (using NASB):

                            2 Samuel 22:6-7 The cords of Sheol surrounded me; The snares of death confronted me. In my distress I called upon the LORD, Yes, I cried to my God; And from His temple He heard my voice, And my cry for help came into His ears.

                            Jonah 2:2 and he said, "I called out of my distress to the LORD, And He answered me. I cried for help from the depth of Sheol; You heard my voice. (Compare to consciousness before Judgment)

                            Isaiah 5:14 Therefore Sheol has enlarged its throat and opened its mouth without measure; And Jerusalem's splendor, her multitude, her din of revelry and the jubilant within her, descend into it.

                            Isaiah 5:24 Therefore, as a tongue of fire consumes stubble And dry grass collapses into the flame, So their root will become like rot and their blossom blow away as dust; For they have rejected the law of the LORD of hosts And despised the word of the Holy One of Israel. (Compare to unconsciousness after Judgment)
                            Where in Isaiah 5:14 Sheol "enlarging its throat, opening mouth without measure" may be seen as going from an initial limited state of Hades, then a final unlimited state of the Lake of Fire for the wicked.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by JohnnyP View Post
                              The NT is more specific about various abodes of the dead, before and after Judgment: Paradise/Abraham's Bosom/Heaven/New Jerusalem for righteous; Hades/Abyss/Lake of Fire for the wicked. The OT uses Sheol more like an umbrella term, everyone goes there. However depending on context we see some implications of consciousness, and some of unconsciousness and total destruction. . . .
                              Well, there is no place "Abraham's Bosom." Except where Lazarus was "in his bosom," that is, in Abraham's arms in Sheol/Hades.

                              Sheol/Hades had two compartments, and upper also referred to indirectly as "Paradise." And the lower compartment where there was the fire, as described as a singular flame.

                              The story is not a parable. Abraham makes reference to Moses and the prophets (Luke 16:29).

                              Mose wrote:
                              "For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest *hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains." -- Deuteronomy 32:22.

                              David wrote:
                              "For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest *hell." -- Psalm 86:13.

                              *hell, that is, Sheol/Hades.
                              Last edited by 37818; 01-26-2014, 01:03 PM.
                              . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

                              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

                              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

                              Comment

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