Question for church-goin Christians...

[One Bad Pig]

In which dictionary is "is" a future tense. Or are you playing stupid?

New American Standard Bible
If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

King James Bible
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Now if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

International Standard Version
But if the Messiah is in you, your bodies are dead due to sin, but the spirit is alive due to righteousness.

NET Bible
But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is your life because of righteousness.

Read verse 11 again.

Source: Rom 8:11

If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also through his Spirit that dwells in you.

© Copyright Original Source

Try reading for context, and keep in mind that my interpretation differs from yours.

We'll see. What happens at "Chrismation"?

We receive the Holy Spirit.

We in the west see countries that have been traditionally eating nutritious food and living longer and refuse to change OUR traditions of eating badly cooked food.

And we in the west see churches that have been spiritually robust in their traditions and refuse to change OUR traditions of poor spiritual nourishment, instead consuming more and more spiritual fluff.

Interpretation. Does. Therefore. Reformation. Is. Required. To. Grow.

God does not change. Scripture does not change. Why should interpretation have to change?

Technically no, but in spirit, yes:

http://www.thisnation.com/question/011.html

Quote
The United States is, indeed, a republic, not a democracy. Accurately defined, a democracy is a form of government in which the people decide policy matters directly--through town hall meetings or by voting on ballot initiatives and referendums. A republic, on the other hand, is a system in which the people choose representatives who, in turn, make policy decisions on their behalf. The Framers of the Constitution were altogether fearful of pure democracy. Everything they read and studied taught them that pure democracies "have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths" (Federalist No. 10).

By popular usage, however, the word "democracy" come to mean a form of government in which the government derives its power from the people and is accountable to them for the use of that power. In this sense the United States might accurately be called a democracy. However, there are examples of "pure democracy" at work in the United States today that would probably trouble the Framers of the Constitution if they were still alive to see them. Many states allow for policy questions to be decided directly by the people by voting on ballot initiatives or referendums. (Initiatives originate with, or are initiated by, the people while referendums originate with, or are referred to the people by, a state's legislative body.)

Your interpretation of that quote is as execrable as your interpretation of scripture. In a certain "sense" the US might accurately be called a democracy. However, I'll note that a republic is also a "form of government in which the government derives its power from the people and is accountable to them for the use of that power." There are limited examples of democracy at work, but the vast majority of the government is republican, even on a local level.

Because you say so? If individuals have freedom, it's a democracy. Any control from another man is tyranny. It's that simple. black and white.

Individuals did not have freedom under Luther. They were free to read the scriptures for themselves, but the only allowable option was Lutheranism.

[Pentecost]

Can you please clarify?

Auto-correct attacked. Divisive* sorry about that.

OTOH, Footwasher is apparently going on about eating raw meat being better for you? Maybe worse. I can't really tell. If he's being literal... It probably doesn't belong in Ecclesiology. If it's metaphorical, he's stretching the milk and meat thing a little far.

[footwasher]

Read verse 11 again.

Source: Rom 8:11

If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also through his Spirit that dwells in you.

© Copyright Original Source

Try reading for context, and keep in mind that my interpretation differs from yours.

Hi OBP, thanks for the reply. I apologize for delaying my response. A task was preponed, and I had to attend to it.

The view that the body will be made alive in the future is not supported Scripturally, in view of the fact that the body is supposed to be made alive in this life. Christ work on the cross led to the gift of the Holy Spirit. This gift enabled the energising of our spirit. We were dead in our sins, but now we are resurrected with Him:

Ephesians 2:4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions-it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus.

However, Paul teaches us to strive for a better resurrection:

Phillipians 3:7But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ. 8More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, 9and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith, 10that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; 11in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

He is not content to have only his spirit resurrected and already united with Christ's Spirit in heaven , he worked to make alive his body as well:

Romans 8:10If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

12So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— 13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

IOW, Paul's desire, for himself and for all believers, is to put to death the deeds of the body, by the Spirit, so that all can live, which is only possible by being in Christ.

John 15:4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless
it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.

In between rest in the Promised Land stood the giants, and when Joshua led Israel into battle and put to death those giants, he was able to lead Israel into the Land. But even today, there remains a rest, for if Joshua had been able to give rest to Israel, God would not have through David said that there remains a rest for the People of God.

Now because Jesus destroyed temptation in His body, those who put to death the deeds of the flesh can enter the real rest, the rest available through union with Christ's body.


Today if we hear God's voice, we should not shrink back, as did those who disobeyed, and died, but put to death those giants, and enter rest, in Christ.

Which is a true rest, because it gives rest from temptation, because we are, not in our body of death, but in Christ's sinless body.

We receive the Holy Spirit.

Which made alive our spirit. But not our body.

And we in the west see churches that have been spiritually robust in their traditions and refuse to change OUR traditions of poor spiritual nourishment, instead consuming more and more spiritual fluff.

Which we should correct. By changing the hierarchical nature of the church. Which Christ commanded. Because not discussing Scripture leads to milk drinking, predigested pap consumption.

God does not change. Scripture does not change. Why should interpretation have to change?

Because interpretation is through collegial discussion.

Your interpretation of that quote is as execrable as your interpretation of scripture. In a certain "sense" the US might accurately be called a democracy. However, I'll note that a republic is also a "form of government in which the government derives its power from the people and is accountable to them for the use of that power." There are limited examples of democracy at work, but the vast majority of the government is republican, even on a local level.

Individuals did not have freedom under Luther. They were free to read the scriptures for themselves, but the only allowable option was Lutheranism.

The US founding fathers did not trust the common people, fearing anarchy. The church did not trust the laity, fearing anarchy. Luther reformed the system, but he didn't go far enough. Jesus taught, Call no man Father, for you only have one Father, in heaven. Referendums are the way to go.

If referendums are an indication of democracy then it looks like democracy is what you have. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it must be a duck.

[One Bad Pig]

Hi OBP, thanks for the reply. I apologize for delaying my response. A task was preponed, and I had to attend to it.

The view that the body will be made alive in the future is not supported Scripturally, in view of the fact that the body is supposed to be made alive in this life. Christ work on the cross led to the gift of the Holy Spirit. This gift enabled the energising of our spirit. We were dead in our sins, but now we are resurrected with Him:

Ephesians 2:4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions-it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus.

However, Paul teaches us to strive for a better resurrection:

Phillipians 3:7But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ. 8More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, 9and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith, 10that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; 11in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

He is not content to have only his spirit resurrected and already united with Christ's Spirit in heaven , he worked to make alive his body as well:

Romans 8:10If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

12So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— 13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

IOW, Paul's desire, for himself and for all believers, is to put to death the deeds of the body, by the Spirit, so that all can live, which is only possible by being in Christ.

John 15:4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless
it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.

In between rest in the Promised Land stood the giants, and when Joshua led Israel into battle and put to death those giants, he was able to lead Israel into the Land. But even today, there remains a rest, for if Joshua had been able to give rest to Israel, God would not have through David said that there remains a rest for the People of God.

Now because Jesus destroyed temptation in His body, those who put to death the deeds of the flesh can enter the real rest, the rest available through union with Christ's body.


Today if we hear God's voice, we should not shrink back, as did those who disobeyed, and died, but put to death those giants, and enter rest, in Christ.

Which is a true rest, because it gives rest from temptation, because we are, not in our body of death, but in Christ's sinless body.

We will inter into Christ's rest, but we are not there yet (Heb 4). We are still subject to temptation, just not more temptation than we can bear (1 Cor 10:13). And we are still in our body of death, as Paul was (Rom 7:24).

Which we should correct. By changing the hierarchical nature of the church. Which Christ commanded. Because not discussing Scripture leads to milk drinking, predigested pap consumption.

The hierarchical nature of the church has nothing to do with not discussing Scripture. St. John Chrysostom, Archbishop of Constantinople in the late 4th century, urged his parishioners to read the scriptures at home.

Because interpretation is through collegial discussion.

That does not follow.

The US founding fathers did not trust the common people, fearing anarchy. The church did not trust the laity, fearing anarchy.

In the West, perhaps. In the East, not so much. Bishops could gather in council and make pronouncements, but if the laity rejected the pronouncements they were void.

Luther reformed the system, but he didn't go far enough.

Luther went too far, and yet not far enough. He had a chance to become Orthodox, but did not take it.

Jesus taught, Call no man Father, for you only have one Father, in heaven.

Which verse has been misinterpreted since the Reformation. Was Jesus literally saying to call no man father? No. People still use that term to refer to their biological father, even Protestants. The Jews were proud to call Abraham father, and thought that was sufficient; that's what Jesus was aiming at.

Referendums are the way to go.

The East has them, more or less.

If referendums are an indication of democracy then it looks like democracy is what you have. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it must be a duck.

In a true democracy, EVERYTHING is a referendum. In the United States, very little is settled by referendum. Don't ignore the forest in favor of a tree.

[Truthseeker]

In a true democracy, EVERYTHING is a referendum.

Some people say, "direct democracy." In any case, considering the dictatorial or authoritarian tendencies of the USFG, one may hesitate a long time on claiming that the USA is indeed a democracy. For example, the executive branch of the USFG has been exercising the power to deploy military forces without much of an authorization by Congress for many years now.

[Steven]

But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; 11Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

Titus 3:9-11

Hmm... interesting.

[footwasher]

We will inter into Christ's rest, but we are not there yet (Heb 4). We are still subject to temptation, just not more temptation than we can bear (1 Cor 10:13). And we are still in our body of death, as Paul was (Rom 7:24).

Wrong. Paul fears he will, after ensuring others have been sanctified, himself lose the prize, so he beats his body to ensure he enters rest. His success is recorded here:

2 Timothy 4:6For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come.7I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith.

Phillipians 2:17But even if I am being poured out as a drink offering upon the sacrifice and service of your faith, I rejoice and share my joy with you all.

The hierarchical nature of the church has nothing to do with not discussing Scripture. St. John Chrysostom, Archbishop of Constantinople in the late 4th century, urged his parishioners to read the scriptures at home.

Prophecy must be tested. Revelation is by the Spirit, and confirmation also by the Spirit. In the assembly of the saints.

That does not follow.

1 Corinthians 14:26What then, brothers? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up.

In the West, perhaps. In the East, not so much. Bishops could gather in council and make pronouncements, but if the laity rejected the pronouncements they were void.

The laity has first to be edified, enlightened to reject pronouncements. Through collegial discussion.

Luther went too far, and yet not far enough. He had a chance to become Orthodox, but did not take it.

I agree the EO is more coherent in its theology.

Which verse has been misinterpreted since the Reformation. Was Jesus literally saying to call no man father? No. People still use that term to refer to their biological father, even Protestants. The Jews were proud to call Abraham father, and thought that was sufficient; that's what Jesus was aiming at.

Father as in unscriptural church hierarchy:

http://biblehub.com/nasb/matthew/23.htm

Pharisaism Exposed

1Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, 2saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; 3therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them. 4“They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger. 5“But they do all their deeds to be noticed by men; for they broaden their phylacteries and lengthen the tassels of their garments. 6“They love the place of honor at banquets and the chief seats in the synagogues, 7and respectful greetings in the market places, and being called Rabbi by men. 8“But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9“Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10“Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ. 11“But the greatest among you shall be your servant. 12“Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.


Eight Woes

13“But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in. 14[“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense you make long prayers; therefore you will receive greater condemnation.]

15“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.

The East has them, more or less.

Then join me in advocating it for the West.

Ezekiel 3:18 "When I say to the wicked, 'You will surely die,' and you do not warn him or speak out to warn the wicked from his wicked way that he may live, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but his blood I will require at your hand.

In a true democracy, EVERYTHING is a referendum. In the United States, very little is settled by referendum. Don't ignore the forest in favor of a tree.

Referendums are good. Let's have them in the church. Don't ignore the teaching in favor of counting coup.

[Cow Poke]

Referendums are good. Let's have them in the church. Don't ignore the teaching in favor of counting coup.

Should we vote, perhaps, on whether the Bible is the Word of God? Or whether Jesus truly rose from the dead? How many times did Paul "take a poll" to see how he should lead?

[footwasher]

Should we vote, perhaps, on whether the Bible is the Word of God? Or whether Jesus truly rose from the dead? How many times did Paul "take a poll" to see how he should lead?

This is what referendum looked like:


1 Corinthians 14:26What then, brothers? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up.

[Cow Poke]

This is what referendum looked like:


1 Corinthians 14:26What then, brothers? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up.

[Cow Poke]

Let all things be done for building up.

And you CERTAINLY haven't grasped this.

[footwasher]

And you CERTAINLY haven't grasped this.

Two things:

Ignorance is bliss,

but

Ignorance is no defense.

[Cow Poke]

Two things:

Ignorance is bliss,

but

Ignorance is no defense.

Yeah, you're showing some of that thar love Jesus talked about which would describe his disciples.

[footwasher]

[footwasher]

Yeah, you're showing some of that thar love Jesus talked about which would describe his disciples.

It's a hard job, but someone's got to do it. Footwashing, pruning, whatchamacallit. Oh yeah, laying down your life.