Originally posted by One Bad Pig
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This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and theists. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions. Additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostDo you have a cite for that? NOT that I don't believe you, but .... if you have one, and don't want to post it, maybe PM it to me?Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostNot sure I can find it. I'll post it if I do. It would help if I could remember his name.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostI agree that the desires of the flesh can be overcome with the help of the Spirit. However, it is a life-long battle.
There once was a desert ascetic well-known for his sanctity - in fact, such was his holiness that God granted him the power through the Spirit to work healings. Yet even he fell prey to temptation, raped a virgin who had come to him for healing, and killed her to hide the deed.
He subsequently repented, but it took decades of fasting and unceasing prayer to regain his former level of sanctity.
If he had obeyed the teaching to ask for the Spirit
he would have been taught to gather with other saints
and removed wrong understandings
and further been taught to evangelise, go into the secular world
It seems he focused on one aspect of faithfulness, putting to death the deeds of the body, but forgot to put to death the temptation to keep silent about the Gospel, a fault many find with the monastic orders, avoiding evangelising, submitting to God, speaking the words God tell us to speak, doing the works God wanted us to do, and finally, becoming the righteousness of God, the fulfillment of God’s covenantal faithfulness to bless the world through Christ:
Colossians 1:21And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, 22yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach— 23if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.
24Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions. 25Of this church I was made a minister according to the stewardship from God bestowed on me for your benefit, so that I might fully carry out the preaching ofthe word of God, 26that is, the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints, 27to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. 28We proclaim Him, admonishing every man and teaching every man with all wisdom, so that we may present every man complete in Christ. 29For this purpose also I labor, striving according to His power, which mightily works within me.
Phillipians 3:7But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ. 8More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, 9and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith, 10that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; 11in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
12Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.13Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do:forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, 14I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. 15Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, have this attitude; and if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that also to you; 16however, let us keep living by that same standard to which we have attained.Last edited by footwasher; 02-17-2015, 02:23 PM.
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Originally posted by Christianbookworm View PostExcept it seems that many here do not think you are exegeting properly washer of feet.
The trick is not in exegeting properly, but in choosing the right way to exegete.
Hint: look up historic criticism.
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostUh, you do realize that the two statements on either side of the comma are for all intents and purposes equivalent to each other?
I've posted already about its limitations when compared to historic criticism.
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Originally posted by footwasher View PostThat’s a wonderful story, but it just shows what happens when we don't study Scripture diligently.
If he had obeyed the teaching to ask for the Spirit
he would have been taught to gather with other saints
and removed wrong understandings
and further been taught to evangelise, go into the secular world
It seems he focused on one aspect of faithfulness, putting to death the deeds of the body, but forgot to put to death the temptation to keep silent about the Gospel, a fault many find with the monastic orders, avoiding evangelising, submitting to God, speaking the words God tell us to speak, doing the works God wanted us to do, and finally, becoming the righteousness of God, the fulfillment of God’s covenantal faithfulness to bless the world through Christ:Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostIt seems that you're doing a whole lot of assuming and casting judgment therefrom.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostIt seems that you're doing a whole lot of assuming and casting judgment therefrom.
I'm sorry but the perception is of a passive faith, rather than the active faith indicated by the Great Commission.
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The first and most important thing to remember is that we do not bring anyone into the Church - its not our job. We do not attract people to the faith, we do not convince people of the Truth, we don't do any of that. God is the One Who attracts people, Who brings them in the door, Who convicts their hearts, Who brings them to repentance, Who convinces them of the Truth; we do none of this. Too often in the North American model of evangelism, the individual person is made responsible for doing God's task, but in attempting to do God's work, we neglect our own. What is our task? Our task is the acquisition of the Holy Spirit (St Seraphim), our task is the working out of our salvation, our task is to repent and weep for our sins, our task is to enter the Kingdom of God. This more than anything else is what we must do. This is an evangelistic task - indeed the primary evangelistic task.
There are other "tasks", however, which derive from this one which are a bit more specific to "evangelism". It is God who brings people to the door of the Church and who convinces them that they should enter - however, we must keep the door to the Church open and visible. Hence, Orthodox evangelism must center on the Church - the beauty of the building, the beauty of the services, the frequency and availability of the services. Orthodox evangelism is served by beautiful icons, gold onion domes and crosses rising against the sky, the smell of incense, the pious and holy singing of the services. Orthodox evangelism is served by our visibility as Orthodox Christians in the world - the clothing of the clergy (and in these days the modest and humble clothing of the laymen as well) - the sign of the cross as we pray at each juncture of our lives - beginning and ending a task, eating and finishing a meal, starting and ending a trip, etc. Orthodox evangelism is the keeping of icons in our homes, in our offices, in our cars. Orthodox evangelism is keeping the fast without excuses or compromises. Orthodox evangelism is setting our priorities to forgo the allures of the world in order to be at divine services whenever they are held. Orthodox evangelism is denying ourselves and bearing our cross. Orthodox evangelism is keeping the door of the Church open and visible. While the Holy Spirit is the one who draws the world to Himself, it is you and I who keep the doors of the Church open and who welcome all who come.
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Originally posted by footwasher View Posthttp://www.orthodox.net/articles/evangelism.html
I'm sorry but the perception is of a passive faith, rather than the active faith indicated by the Great Commission.
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The first and most important thing to remember is that we do not bring anyone into the Church - its not our job. We do not attract people to the faith, we do not convince people of the Truth, we don't do any of that. God is the One Who attracts people, Who brings them in the door, Who convicts their hearts, Who brings them to repentance, Who convinces them of the Truth; we do none of this. Too often in the North American model of evangelism, the individual person is made responsible for doing God's task, but in attempting to do God's work, we neglect our own. What is our task? Our task is the acquisition of the Holy Spirit (St Seraphim), our task is the working out of our salvation, our task is to repent and weep for our sins, our task is to enter the Kingdom of God. This more than anything else is what we must do. This is an evangelistic task - indeed the primary evangelistic task.
There are other "tasks", however, which derive from this one which are a bit more specific to "evangelism". It is God who brings people to the door of the Church and who convinces them that they should enter - however, we must keep the door to the Church open and visible. Hence, Orthodox evangelism must center on the Church - the beauty of the building, the beauty of the services, the frequency and availability of the services. Orthodox evangelism is served by beautiful icons, gold onion domes and crosses rising against the sky, the smell of incense, the pious and holy singing of the services. Orthodox evangelism is served by our visibility as Orthodox Christians in the world - the clothing of the clergy (and in these days the modest and humble clothing of the laymen as well) - the sign of the cross as we pray at each juncture of our lives - beginning and ending a task, eating and finishing a meal, starting and ending a trip, etc. Orthodox evangelism is the keeping of icons in our homes, in our offices, in our cars. Orthodox evangelism is keeping the fast without excuses or compromises. Orthodox evangelism is setting our priorities to forgo the allures of the world in order to be at divine services whenever they are held. Orthodox evangelism is denying ourselves and bearing our cross. Orthodox evangelism is keeping the door of the Church open and visible. While the Holy Spirit is the one who draws the world to Himself, it is you and I who keep the doors of the Church open and who welcome all who come.
Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One bad Pig View PostThe author of the article is in no way an official voice of Orthodoxy - and the North American Assembly of Bishops would disagree with him.
The only logical conclusion is that he did not put to death the desires of the flesh.
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Originally posted by footwasher View PostWell, you can't say that he obeyed the command to put to death the desires of the flesh by the Spirit and it didn't happen.
The only logical conclusion is that he did not put to death the desires of the flesh.
When you have succeeded in no longer sinning, feel free to start casting stones.Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostCould you please not post cross-thread like this? This has nothing to do with what I posted, and is merely a comment based on another thread.
When you have succeeded in no longer sinning, feel free to start casting stones.
Are you positing that he tried and failed?
That I should not try to do what Scripture teaches?
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Originally posted by footwasher View PostHow could that man have committed rape if he had tried to put to death the desires of the flesh?
Are you positing that he tried and failed?
That I should not try to do what Scripture teaches?Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
sigpic
I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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