Originally posted by Darth Executor
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Stoning to death in the OT and the situation now after the NT.
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostI imagine that scenario is possible, but to me it's akin to putting a gun to someone's head and forcing them to convert.
Christian's did something like that in the past, and the conversions were halfhearted at best. I think that the longer a person has to live, the more opportunity they have to come to a free will conversion. I realize that you disagree since you've made your disagreement abundantly clear in prior posts."As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
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Originally posted by Darth Executor View PostHow? The execution is presumably for some heinous crime, it's not a conversion tool in and of itself.
My point was that having time, in and of itself, does not translate to conversion opportunities.
Without data it's a meaningless argument that could swing either way.
Yes, and IIRC I cited last words for executed prisoners and the bulk of them expressed faith in God.
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostSeems more likely to me that a Capital Punishment conversion would be based out of fear, rather than love or true loyalty. That isn't to say I think no genuine conversions come from fear of death, but in the long run I question the free will element that comes purely from a fear-based commitment to Christ. If you are unable to comprehend that, I don't think it's something I can explain.
I disagree. I think the more time available to someone, the more opportunity awaits.
I don't remember that, but at any rate, I don't doubt that a desperate man might express any number of things when it comes down to the wire. Confessing with one's mouth is one thing, believing in one's heart is another."As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
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Originally posted by Darth Executor View PostFree will has nothing to do with fear.
Converting out of fear is no less a free will conversion than converting out of feelgood.
Also, plenty of people who aren't on death row feign Christianity to show they've reformed to the point of parody, so sparing someone the death penalty can and does have the same effect you complain about.
You're not the least bit concerned it could have the opposite effect?
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Originally posted by Darth Executor View PostIt's not irrelevant, and He wasn't "asked His opinion", they were trying to get Him to break Roman law:
If Jesus consented to the execution, He broke Roman law. If He didn't, He broke Jewish law.
So Jesus came up with a way to avoid doing either. What you are saying is that we shouldn't lawfully execute adulterers because Jesus didn't lynch a woman.
Not disputed. Also not relevant to whether we should execute adulterers."What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer
"... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen
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Originally posted by Littlejoe View PostIf He has no authority, then how could He break any law? That's why it's irrelevant.
Right, they were trying to get Him to render an opinion that they could use against Him. But, if He had no authority to execute someone, it was an accusation against His beliefs.Well...technically, He agreed that she could be stoned, but stipulated that those without sin should start it.
So, we shouldn't use Christ's examples when possible?Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostIt's not irrelevant, because he could be portrayed as advocating breaking a law.
Shouldn't we take care not to take Christ's examples out of context?"What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer
"... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostI imagine that scenario is possible, but to me it's akin to putting a gun to someone's head and forcing them to convert. Christian's did something like that in the past, and the conversions were halfhearted at best. I think that the longer a person has to live, the more opportunity they have to come to a free will conversion. I realize that you disagree since you've made your disagreement abundantly clear in prior posts.Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
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Originally posted by Littlejoe View PostBut DE's point was he had no authority to put someone to death. That point is irrelevant. You are agreeing with my position it seems?
certainly...how am I taking it out of context?
As we are not under the Mosaic Covenant, we are not obligated to enforce its penalty for breaking it. The Church's remedy is loss of communion with the offending party, with the goal of eventual restoration of communion.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostNo, the point is highly relevant.
LJ: but if Christ did not condone the stoning of the Woman caught in adultery, neither should we.
DE: Christ had no legal authority to execute her.
How is Christ's legal authority related to His condoning the stoning since neither did the Pharisees have the authority.
Well, I was speaking in general; before saying we should do what Jesus did, we should see why Jesus did what He did. In this instance, Jesus was constrained politically from openly advocating stoning her or taking part in doing so. On the other hand, the Law clearly mandated stoning for adultery. On the other other hand, Jesus uniquely has the power to forgive.
As we are not under the Mosaic Covenant, we are not obligated to enforce its penalty for breaking it. The Church's remedy is loss of communion with the offending party, with the goal of eventual restoration of communion."What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer
"... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen
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Originally posted by Littlejoe View PostIf He has no authority, then how could He break any law? That's why it's irrelevant.
Right, they were trying to get Him to render an opinion that they could use against Him. But, if He had no authority to execute someone, it was an accusation against His beliefs.
Well...technically, He agreed that she could be stoned, but stipulated that those without sin should start it.
So, we shouldn't use Christ's examples when possible?Last edited by Darth Executor; 05-11-2015, 06:18 PM."As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
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Originally posted by Littlejoe View PostI truly do not see the relevance. Perhaps you can explain it to me."As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
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Originally posted by Jedidiah View PostThe two are not even close. The man being executed will not save his life by converting. His only relationship in this case is God.
At any rate, though I don't think it's out of the question that a man can truly repent and make Jesus Lord with their neck on the chopping block, I believe it's more likely that a man will come to a saving knowledge of the truth, and a fearless and perfected love (1 John 4:18) when they don't have the goad of a noose swinging in front of them. Again, I understand that is an unpopular view among American Christians, and I fully realize that my view on the matter is in the minority. I don't think the arguments for capital punishment are totally unreasonable, I simply do not agree that the ends justify the means.Last edited by Adrift; 05-11-2015, 07:01 PM.
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