The Oklahoma Supreme Court rules against 10 Commndment monument

[shunyadragon]

Yes, modern liberal courts have found those things to be unconstitutional - the Founders who actually wrote the Constitution did not. Hey, we had Sabbath laws (blue laws) in my state until the early sixties and we did just fine. As did the US in general.

The Blue Laws were religious laws and violations of the principle of the separation of religion and state. Unfortunately, your still living in the past. It is now the case that everyone can observe the Sabbath they believe in whether Friday, Saturday, Sunday or whatever without legal restraints forcing everyone to observe laws favoring only one religious Sabbath.

Not the point. The fact that we had Blasphemy laws against the Christian God shows how integral the Christian faith was in the US.

You are the one who mentions Odin I only gave a factual response.

[seer]

The Blue Laws were religious laws and violations of the principle of the separation of religion and state. Unfortunately, your still living in the past. It is now the case that everyone can observe the Sabbath they believe in whether Friday, Saturday, Sunday or whatever without legal restraints forcing everyone to observe laws favoring only one religious Sabbath.

Shuny, is this going over your head? The point of all this is that the Christian religion had a deep and powerful effect on the founding of this nation and its laws. Unlike any other religion. And there is nothing wrong with representing that history with something like the Ten Commandments on state property. It is a historical fact.

You are the one who mentions Odin I only gave a factual response.

There really is something wrong with you - I bet you get that a lot...

[Roy]

Context restored to demonstrate seer's dishonesty:

Seer's actual claim was much, much stronger than English law being 'heavily influenced' by Biblical law:

Alfred the Great was called the Father of English Common Law, and he took most of the principles directly from Scripture.

That is false. Alfred took most of the principles from the law codes of Saxon kingdoms. Seer's own sources refute him.

But the Saxon kingdoms were Christian:

Irrelevant. Seer claimed Alfred took most of the principles directly from Scripture. The law codes of Saxon kingdoms are not scripture.

You really do owe me an apology Roy.

No.

Roy

[seer]

Context restored to demonstrate seer's dishonesty:Irrelevant. Seer claimed Alfred took most of the principles directly from Scripture. The law codes of Saxon kingdoms are not scripture.

No.

Roy

The Saxon laws were Christian,

For instance the Wessex laws of King Ine

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ine_of_Wessex

Ine was a Christian king, whose intent to encourage Christianity is clear from the laws. The oath of a communicant, for example, is declared to carry more weight than that of a non-Christian;[33] and baptism and religious observance are also addressed. Significant attention is also paid to civil issues—more than in the contemporary Kentish laws.[38]

Ine is noted for his code of laws (leges Inae or "laws of Ine"), which he issued in about 694. These laws were the first issued by an Anglo-Saxon king outside Kent. They shed much light on the history of Anglo-Saxon society, and reveal Ine's Christian convictions.

What Alfred added, his 48 dooms, were drawn from Scripture:

Here are some excerpts from the Code of Alfred (compare Exodus 20:3-17):

"The Lord spoke these words to Moses, and said: 'I am the Lord your God. I led you out of the lands and out of the bondage of the Egyptians."

1). "Do not love other strange gods before Me!"

2)."Do not call out My Name in idleness! For you are not guiltless with Me, if you call out My Name in idleness."

3). "Mind that you hallow the rest-day! You must work six days; but on the seventh you must rest! For in six days Christ made Heavens and Earth, the seas, and all the shapen things in them; but He rested on the seventh day. Therefore, the Lord hallowed it."

4). "Honour your father and your mother whom the Lord gave you - so that you may live longer on Earth!"

5). "Do not slay!"

6). "Do not commit adultery!"

7). "Do not steal!"

8). "Do not witness falsely!"

9). "Do not unrighteously desire your neighbour's goods!"

10)."Do not make gold or silver gods for yourself!"

11)."These are the judgments which you must appoint. If anyone buys a Christian slave (20) [or man in bondage], let him be bonded for six years - but the seventh, he must freely be unbought. With such clothes as he went in, with such must he go forth. If he himself had a wife [previously] - she must go out with him. However, if his overlord gave him a wife - she and her bairn [must] go to the overlord. If, however, the bondsman then says, 'I do not wish to go away from my overlord; nor from my wife; nor from my bairn; nor from my goods' -let his overlord then bring him to the door of the church and drill his ear through with an awl, as a sign that he should be a bondsman ever since!" Exodus 21:2-6.

12)."Though anyone sells his daughter as a maidservant, let her not at all be a bondswoman like other women. Nor may he sell her to foreigners. But if he who bought her does not respect her - let her go free, [even] among foreigners. If, then, he [her overlord] allows his son to cohabit with her - let him give her marriage-gifts, and see to it that she receives clothes and the dowry which is the value of her maidenhood! Let him give her that! If he do none of these things to her - then she is free." See: Exodus 21:7.

13)."The man who intentionally slays another man -let him suffer death [Genesis 9:5-6] ! He, however, who slay him out of necessity or unwillingly or involuntarily - as when God may have sent him into his power, and when he had not lain in wait for him - he is worthy of his living and lawful fine, if he [the involuntary manslaughterer] seeks asylum. But if anyone presumptuously and wilfully slays his neighbour through guile - drag him from My altar, so that he should suffer death!" See: Numbers 35:11-33.

14)."He who smites his father or his mother - shall suffer death!"

15)."He who steals a Freeman and sells him, and it be proved against him, so that he cannot clear himself - let him suffer death!"

16)."If anyone smites his neighbour with a stone or with his fist - if he [the one smitten] may go forth, even though only with the help of a staff: get him medicine; and do his work for him, while he himself cannot!" See: Exodus 21:12-16.

17)."He who smites his own bondservant or bondswoman - if he or she does not die the same day but still lives for two or three nights - he is not at all so guilty [of death]: for it was his own chattel. However, if he or she die the same day - put the guilt upon him [the overlord]!" See: Exodus 21:20-21.

18)."If anyone, while fighting, hurt a pregnant woman - let him pay a fine for the hurt, as the evaluators determine! If she die - let him pay soul with soul!" See: Exodus 21:22-23.

19)."If anyone puts out another's eye, let him give his own for it: tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe!"(21) See: Exodus 21:24-25.

20)."If anyone smite out the eye of his manservant or his maidservant, so that he makes them one-eyed - for that, he must free them!" See: Exodus 21:26-27.

21)."If an ox gores a man or a woman so that they die -let the ox be stoned to death; but do not let its flesh be eaten! The owner is guiltless - if the ox gored two or three days earlier and the owner did not know about it. However, if he did know about it, and if he did not want to impound it - and if it then slew either a man or a woman- let it be destroyed with stones, and let the owner of the slain or the gored bondsman be paid whatever the Council finds to be right! If it gore a son or a daughter, it is worthy of the same judgment. However, if it gored a bondsman or bondsmen, let thirty shillings of silver be given to the overlord; and let the ox be destroyed with stones!" See: Exodus 21:28-32.

22) "If anyone digs a water-pit; or unties a tied-up animal, and does not tie it up again-let him pay for whatever falls therein; and let him have the dead one!" See: Exodus 21:33-34.

23)."If an ox wounds another man's ox so that it dies, let them sell the [live] ox and share its value and, similarly, also the meat of the dead one! However, if the owner knew that the ox was goring, but did not wish to restrain it - let him give another ox for it, and keep all the meat for himself!" See: Exodus 21:35-36.

24)."If anyone steals another's ox, and slays or sells it - let him give two for it; and four sheep for one! If he does not have anything to give - let he himself be sold for the fee!" See: Exodus 22:1.

25)."If a thief breaks into a man's house at night, and he be slain there - he [the slayer] is not guilty of manslaughter! If he does this after sun-rise, he is guilty of manslaughter; and he himself shall then die - unless he slew out of necessity! If he [the thief] be caught red-handed with what he previously stole - let him pay twofold for it!" See: Exodus 22:2-4.

26)."If anyone harms another man's vineyard or his acres or any of his lands - let him pay the fine as men value it!" See: Exodus 22:5.

27)."If fire be kindled to burn right (22) - let him who tindered the fire then pay a fine for the mischief!" Here, for "fine" Alfred uses the Anglo-Saxon word bot (compare the word 'booty'). See: Exodus 22:6.

28)."If anyone entrust livestock to his friend - if he [the friend] himself steals it, let him pay for it twofold! If he does not know who stole it, let him clear himself [from the accusation] that he committed a fraud! However, if it were quick [alias 'live'] cattIe- and if he says that the army took it; or that it died of itself; and if he has a witness - he need not pay for it. If he, however, has no witness - and if he [the loser of the livestock] does not believe him [the custodian] - let him then swear!" See: Exodus 22:7-11.

29)."If anyone deceives an unwedded woman and sleeps with her, let him pay for her - and have her afterwards as his wife! However, if the woman's father does not want to let her go - let him [the seducer] give money, according to her dowry!" Cf. Exodus 22:16-17.

30)."Don't let women live who are wont to receive enchanters and conjurers and witches!" See: Exodus 22:18. Note: these sorcerers and practitioners of
witchcraft were usually also murderers and/or kidnappers.

31)."Let him who has intercourse with cattle (23) suffer death!" See: Exodus 22:19. Note: modern departures from the capital punishments in this and other similar provisions here, are departures not just from the Ancient Common Law - but also from the Holy Bible.

32). "Also let him who offers sacrifices to the gods - except to God alone - suffer death!" See: Exodus 22:18-20. Note: the cruel earlier extermination by
(degenerate) unitarian Judaists or Moslems and also by polytheistic Pagans even of private worshippers of the Triune Jehovah as the one and only True God - is here replaced by the humane judicial punishment according to (regenerate) Trinitarian Law not of those who are private but rather of those who are public worshippers of false gods.

33)."You must not vex strangers and those who come from afar - for you were strangers, long ago, in the land of the Egyptians!" See: Exodus 22:21.
Note: not the unitarian mediaeval Jews but the trinitarian Anglo-Britons are here regarded as the legal continuation of the Ancient Israelites.

34) "You must not scathe widows and stepchildren, nor harm them anywhere! However, if you do otherwise - they cry out to Me, and I hear them; and then I slay you with My sword. Thus I make your wives to be widows, and your bairns to be step-children!" See: Exodus 22:22-24.

35)."If you give money as a loan to your comrade who wants to dwell with you - do not pressure him as one in need; and do not oppress him with interest!" See: Exodus 22:25.

36)."If a man has nothing but a single garment with which to cover himself or to wear, and he gives it as a pledge - before the sun sets, give it back to him! If you do not do so - he calls out to Me; and I hear him. For I am very mild-hearted." See: Exodus 22:26-27.

37)."You may not revile your Lord; nor curse the overlord of the people!" See: Exodus 22:28.

38)."Your tithe-monies and your first-fruits of things that go, and things that grow - you must give to God!" See: Exodus 22:29-30.

39)."You may not eat at all of that meat which wild animals leave! Give it to the hounds!" See: Exodus 22:31.

40)."Do not listen to the words of a liar; nor permit his judgments; nor speak to anyone who gives testimony in his favour!" See: Exodus 23:1f

41)."Do not, beyond your right reason, wend yourself to people who are unwise and unrighteous in their wishes, when they speak and cry out - nor to the learning of the most unwise! Do not permit them!" See: Exodus 23:2f

42)."If another man's stray cattle come into your power - though it be your foe - make it known to him!" See: Exodus 22:4.

43)."You must judge very evenly; do not give one judgment to the wealthy, [but] another to the poor! Nor give one judgment to the more beloved - and another to the more disliked!" See: Exodus 23:6.

44)."Always shun lies [alias 'Shun thou aye leasings']!"

45)."You must never slay a righteous [alias 'soothfast'] and unguilty man!"

46)."You must never accept bribes [alias 'meed-monies') ! For they all too often blinden wise men's thoughts and turn their words aside." See: Exodus 23:7-8.

47)."Do not act in any way uncouthly toward the stranger from abroad [alias 'out-comer']; nor oppress him with any unrighteousness [alias 'uncouthly']!"

48)."Never swear by heathen gods; nor may you call out to them, in any way!" Exodus 23:9.

As former Harvard Law Professor Harold J. Berman has remarked (24) Alfred's laws are largely a recapitulation of earlier collections made by previous monarchs. Thus Alfred's laws contain such striking provisions as:

"Doom very evenly! Do not doom one doom to the rich; another to the poor! Nor doom one doom to your friend; another to your foe!"

These Alfredian provisions do, in fact, reflect the judicial laws of Moses. For:

"You shall do no injustice in judgment! You shall not be partial to the poor; nor defer to the great! But you are to judge your neighbour fairly!" Leviticus 19:15.

"The stranger [cf the Brythonic Welshman and even the Anglo-Dane] that dwells with you [viz. with Alfred's Englishmen], shall be to you as one born among you; and you shall love him as yourself!" Leviticus 19:35.

[shunyadragon]

Shuny, is this going over your head? The point of all this is that the Christian religion had a deep and powerful effect on the founding of this nation and its laws. Unlike any other religion. And there is nothing wrong with representing that history with something like the Ten Commandments on state property. It is a historical fact.

There really is something wrong with you - I bet you get that a lot...

No meaning. You brought up Odin.

[seer]

Then show me the actual history of any other religion that had more influence on the founding of this nation. And as far as the Supreme Court facade - who sits in the center and is higher than the rest. Yes, that does tell you something - and it is in stone!

Let me again quote John Adam's Letter to Jefferson:

The general Principles, on which the Fathers Atchieved Independence, were the only Principles in which, that beautiful Assembly of young Gentlemen9 could Unite, and these Principles only could be intended by them in their Address, or by me in my Answer. And what were these general Principles? I answer, the general Principles of Christianity,10 in which all those Sects were United: And the general Principles of English and American Liberty, in which all those young Men United, and which had United all Parties in America, in Majorities Sufficient to assert and maintain her Independence.

Now I will avow, that I then believed, and now believe, that those general Principles of Christianity, are as eternal and immutable, as the Existence and Attributes of God: and that those Principles of Liberty, are as unalterable as human Nature and our terrestrial, mundane System.

http://founders.archives.gov/documen.../03-06-02-0208

No meaning. You brought up Odin.

BUT WHY DID I BRING IT UP SHUNY? WHAT WAS THE POINT!

[Tassman]

Yes exactly. Seer take note. This is my response to your Post #55 as well.

http://founders.archives.gov/documen.../03-06-02-0208




BUT WHY DID I BRING IT UP SHUNY? WHAT WAS THE POINT!

Oh dear!!!

Because, obviously, the point shuny was making was that blasphemy against the gods of the day, whether Odin, Apollo or YAHWEH, is standard procedure.

[seer]

Because, obviously, the point shuny was making was that blasphemy against the gods of the day, whether Odin, Apollo or YAHWEH, is standard procedure.

Right! And what was my point Homer? That we here in the US had blasphemy laws concering the God of the bible. No other god or deity - again proving my points that the Christian religion was central, and that religious laws were instituted on the state level.

[shunyadragon]

Then show me the actual history of any other religion that had more influence on the founding of this nation. And as far as the Supreme Court facade - who sits in the center and is higher than the rest. Yes, that does tell you something - and it is in stone!

Let me again quote John Adam's Letter to Jefferson:




http://founders.archives.gov/documen.../03-06-02-0208

I acknowledged the letter from Adams to Jefferson, ok so what?!?!?! You have not acknowledged that the Constitution has evolved and changed. The views of the founding fathers were variable on many issues. Some owned slaves, some opposed slavery.

You are unwilling to accept it, but the Constitution today has changed and the interpretation of the Constitution has changed.

BUT WHY DID I BRING IT UP SHUNY? WHAT WAS THE POINT!

I do not play guessing games. Why did you bring it up?

[shunyadragon]

Right! And what was my point Homer? That we here in the US had blasphemy laws concering the God of the bible. No other god or deity - again proving my points that the Christian religion was central, and that religious laws were instituted on the state level.

Had, past tense! Fortunately religious laws instituted on the state level have been found unconstitutional. Over time Conservative and Liberal judges have found them unconstitutional.

[seer]

Had, past tense! Fortunately religious laws instituted on the state level have been found unconstitutional. Over time Conservative and Liberal judges have found them unconstitutional.

This does not change the fact of Christianity's influence on the Founding and character of this nation. And there is zero reason why the Ten Commandment should not be on state property, even if only as an historical marker. And I'm not sure what your problem is with religious law, is secular law somehow more desirable? And whose secular law?

[Roy]

Irrelevant. Seer claimed Alfred took most of the principles directly from Scripture. The law codes of Saxon kingdoms are not scripture.

The Saxon laws were Christian, ...

Irrelevant. Seer claimed Alfred took most of the principles directly from Scripture. The law codes of Saxon kingdoms are not scripture.

What Alfred added, his 48 dooms, were drawn from Scripture

But since those do not comprise most of Alfred's laws, that doesn't help.

Alfred's Doom book was partly (~1/5) based on the bible and partly (~4/5) based on previous Saxon law codes.

Seer's claim that Alfred "took most of the principles directly from Scripture" is factually incorrect, and no amount of reiteration, spin, weasel wording, pretence, goalpost moving or outright lies will change that.

Roy

[seer]

Irrelevant. Seer claimed Alfred took most of the principles directly from Scripture. The law codes of Saxon kingdoms are not scripture.But since those do not comprise most of Alfred's laws, that doesn't help.

Alfred's Doom book was partly (~1/5) based on the bible and partly (~4/5) based on previous Saxon law codes.

Seer's claim that Alfred "took most of the principles directly from Scripture" is factually incorrect, and no amount of reiteration, spin, weasel wording, pretence, goalpost moving or outright lies will change that.

Roy

Again Roy, that is false. Look at the actual laws that Alfred added to the Book of Doom. Not the only the commentary. Those actual laws are Bibically based and I quoted them here. The 1/5 is not even dealing with the actual law, but a preamble to the law. And the previous Saxon law codes are influenced by Scripture; of the three Saxon kingdoms in question we know this:

Significantly, the Preface to Alfred's own laws then closes with a very important statement about the provisions of the Christian Common Law of Britain before his own day. Here Alfred recalls especially the Christian laws made by the very first Saxon King in England to become christianized - Ethelbryte, alias the A.D. 540 Aethelberht King of Kent. Alfred then goes on to refer also to the A.D. 688 Wessex laws of the Christian King Ina in the South West of England, and to the A.D. 755 Mercian laws of the Christian King Offa of the Anglo-British Midlands. The latter were Anglo-Brythonic laws doubtless endorsed also by Alfred's Welsh friend Asser, the extremely learned Celto-Brythonic Scholar.

So these are called Christian Common law. And Christian law.

Ine was a Christian king, whose intent to encourage Christianity is clear from the lawsand reveal Ine's Christian convictions.

The Saxon Wessex laws reflected King Ine's Christian beliefs. And we don't know much at all about, if anything, about the Mercian laws only that they fall under what was referenced as CHRISTIAN COMMON LAW.

Alfred is perhaps best of all remembered for his famous Law Code. According to the celebrated former British Statesman and Historian Sir Winston Churchill,2 the roots of King Alfred's Book of Laws or Dooms (alias his "Deemings") came forth from the (as then already long-established) laws of Kent, Mercia and Wessex. All these attempted to blend the Mosaic Code with the Christian principles of Celto-Brythonic Law and old Germanic customs.

So the laws of Kent, Mercia and Wessex already blended the Mosaic Code and Christian Principles with old Germanic customs. So long before Alfred Saxon Law had biblical influence. Period end of story.

[Roy]

Again Roy, that is false. Look at the actual laws that Alfred added to the Book of Doom. Not the only the commentary. Those actual laws are Bibically based and I quoted them here. The 1/5 is not even dealing with the actual law, but a preamble to the law. And the previous Saxon law codes are influenced by Scripture...

So these are called Christian Common law. And Christian law.

Saxon Wessex laws reflected King Ine's Christian beliefs...

So the laws of Kent, Mercia and Wessex already blended the Mosaic Code and Christian Principles with old Germanic customs. So long before Alfred Saxon Law had biblical influence. Period end of story.

Being influenced by scripture is not the same as being taken directly from scripture.
Being called Christian law is not the same as being taken directly from scripture.
Reflecting Christian beliefs is not the same as being taken directly from scripture.
Being already blended with Christian principles is not the same as being taken directly from scripture.

Seer's claim that Alfred "took most of the principles directly from Scripture" is factually incorrect, and no amount of reiteration, spin, weasel wording, pretence, goalpost moving or outright lies will change that.

Roy

[seer]

Being influenced by scripture is not the same as being taken directly from scripture.
Being called Christian law is not the same as being taken directly from scripture.
Reflecting Christian beliefs is not the same as being taken directly from scripture.
Being already blended with Christian principles is not the same as being taken directly from scripture.

Seer's claim that Alfred "took most of the principles directly from Scripture" is factually incorrect, and no amount of reiteration, spin, weasel wording, pretence, goalpost moving or outright lies will change that.

Roy

Right, so Christian Common law and Christian law are not biblically based.