Lowering the Confederate Flag - and Wally World

[rogue06]

I built the models, then made them "realistic" by burning bullet holes and stuff in them with a magnifying glass in the hot Texas sun.

We melted "battle damage" into models of naval warships using a soldering iron and then placed them in an old sandbox and blew them to bits with firecrackers that had been placed inside during the construction process.

[Sam]

Relax, KG - I know this is an argument I can never win. History is written by the victors.

Who wrote SC's or TX's declaration of secession?

[seer]

And if you wanted an "engine on fire" effect, you could always hold that part over a candle and get the "smudge factor".

Yep, did that too! Except I used burning glue, to get that effect.

[seer]

We melted "battle damage" into models of naval warships using a soldering iron and then placed them in an old sandbox and blew them to bits with firecrackers that had been placed inside during the construction process.

I never built a M80 into it. I wonder if liberal guys did this kind of stuff as kids - or did they just play with dolls?

[Catholicity]

The principle being preserved, the one over which states were willing to secede and Confederates to die, was the preservation of slavery. Calling it "state's rights" instead of "the right of the states to preserve the institution of slavery" is hiding behind generalities.

The "War of Northern Aggression" was fought because the Confederate states feared that the Union would abolish slavery. Anyone supporting the Confederacy or "Southern heritage" in this context needs to explicitly own that fact.

Realistically, Its not a very good idea to deny that the Union was okay with imposing trade sanctions in Virginia, taking of land, and drawing new property lines to get what they wanted. Those items are clearly outlined if you take the time to read South Carolina's declaration. Also they did want to abolish the slave tax. which was a source of income. Who wants a source of income taken? And like it or not. 13.7 percent of the Slave holding Population was actually Black, and yes some even had white overseers, and there were even some slaveholding black women. (The truth isn't pretty) Its actually just how things were. Rights and money were at stake. And what happened during reconstruction? Disasters. People lost their land, their homes and their freedom.

[Adrift]

I never built a M80 into it. I wonder if liberal guys did this kind of stuff as kids - or did they just play with dolls?

I attached GI Joes to small kites, lit them on fire, and pretended they got shot down by the enemy as they dripped molten plastic. Does that get me my anti-pinko/liberal man card?

[Darth Executor]

I attached GI Joes to small kites, lit them on fire, and pretended they got shot down by the enemy as they dripped molten plastic. Does that get me my anti-pinko/liberal man card?

It gets you a "so where did you go wrong" inquisitive look.

[Leonhard]

I'll be frank, I get the connection of the flag with the Confederacy, and all the nasty things they did, as well as their historically undeniable defense of the crime of abject, hopeless, humiliating, dehumanizing slavery as it was practiced in the US. Its not a flag I like, and when I hear that Texas doesn't want to put that flag on license plates, I think 'good'. The Texas government can decide whether they want to have that or not.

In general though, people should be allowed to flag their flags. I'm proud of my own, and I get why people will be particularly invested in theirs even if I don't see it. During the occupation of Denmark by Nazi Germany, the nazis forbade the danes to have their flags. So... people started painting their cows in the color of the flag, one painted a tree, wore clothes in the colors of the flag, etc... people will flag.

[Darth Executor]

Relax, KG - I know this is an argument I can never win. History is written by the victors.

You could win, it's not like the North went on a bookburning spree and erased every record of their own misdeeds and the much more nuanced reality of the time. You're just lazy*.












*And I completely sympathize.

[Sam]

Realistically, Its not a very good idea to deny that the Union was okay with imposing trade sanctions in Virginia, taking of land, and drawing new property lines to get what they wanted. Those items are clearly outlined if you take the time to read South Carolina's declaration. Also they did want to abolish the slave tax. which was a source of income. Who wants a source of income taken? And like it or not. 13.7 percent of the Slave holding Population was actually Black, and yes some even had white overseers, and there were even some slaveholding black women. (The truth isn't pretty) Its actually just how things were. Rights and money were at stake. And what happened during reconstruction? Disasters. People lost their land, their homes and their freedom.

I've read SC's declaration of secession three times now today and I do not see where trade sanctions, taking of land, or drawing new property lines are mentioned.

That the abolitionist or slaver movements were messy and interspersed with implicit or explicit contradiction, no one will deny. That some slaveholders were black or that some black Confederates existed and fought is something, again, that cannot be denied. That the Confederate states' interest in slavery was fundamentally economic is, I think, somewhat obvious. But none of these things mitigate or detract from the fact that slavery was the reason for the Confederacy's existence and was the reason for the Civil War.

Support or celebration of the Confederacy is therefore inextricably tied to the effort to preserve the institution of slavery. Memorials to Confederates are memorials to individuals who fought for that cause, implicitly or explicitly.

[seer]

I attached GI Joes to small kites, lit them on fire, and pretended they got shot down by the enemy as they dripped molten plastic. Does that get me my anti-pinko/liberal man card?

Yes you qualify!!!! And good idea - I wish I thought of that !

[Cow Poke]

You could win, it's not like the North went on a bookburning spree and erased every record of their own misdeeds and the much more nuanced reality of the time. You're just lazy*.

It's just not worth it. And, yes, to your point, the North just found a better way to use slaves without calling it slavery.

[Catholicity]

What was specifically wrong with his argument?

yeah lighten up a little KG

[Cow Poke]

I never built a M80 into it. I wonder if liberal guys did this kind of stuff as kids - or did they just play with dolls?

When I graduated to the .049 engine planes (not the radio controlled - that was WAY too expensive (if even available) back then, but the kind you stood holding the "control lines" while the plane circled around you)) we used to put M80's in the cockpit or tape them to the wings and the guy starting the plane would light the long fuse with a punk, and let it go..... it was fun to get that thing flying HIGH, then BOOM, and pieces would rain down....



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[shunyadragon]

No, they decided to have a war explicitly in order to preserve slavery.

To quote a friend (and not a great War Nerd article, as this is to be a polite discussion), "there should be no memorials to the Confederacy or any of its 'heroes'. Problem solved." Insofar as companies like Wal-Mart should sell the paraphernalia of secessionists and supremacists, that's their decision.

Excellent reference!