No Room At The Inn?

[KingsGambit]

My broader point is that I suspect that affirmative violent action to overthrow a government is looked at as a higher level violation than somebody trying to bring their family out of a bad or unsafe situation. Sort of like how we look at the 20 years in prison for stealing bread in Les Mis different than your average theft.

[Sparko]

Both are a violation.

Why?

How do you think God puts authorities in charge? Poof! there they are?

In the case of the American Revolution, what makes you think that God didn't use that to displace the corrupt British government in America?

[Darth Executor]

My broader point is that I suspect that affirmative violent action to overthrow a government is looked at as a higher level violation than somebody trying to bring their family out of a bad or unsafe situation. Sort of like how we look at the 20 years in prison for stealing bread in Les Mis different than your average theft.

The former is only a violation if it fails. In this case it didn't, so the latter is a bigger violation as the former is not a violation at all.

[KingsGambit]

Why?

How do you think God puts authorities in charge? Poof! there they are?

In the case of the American Revolution, what makes you think that God didn't use that to displace the corrupt British government in America?

I believe God can use actions that are in themselves sinful for a greater good (such as when an illegitimate child is conceived and that child goes on to do great things for the gospel). Having said that, there doesn't seem to be an exception in Romans 13 for if a government is corrupt. The Roman government was far worse than the US government yet Paul still demanded submission.

[Darth Executor]

I'm still waiting for answers on how Mexicans can improve America's moral fabric with their gigantic crime and abortion rates. That's before getting into the boost in moral fabric the US receives from turning more of its already dead working class into minimum wage or welfare drones.

[Sparko]

I believe God can use actions that are in themselves sinful for a greater good (such as when an illegitimate child is conceived and that child goes on to do great things for the gospel). Having said that, there doesn't seem to be an exception in Romans 13 for if a government is corrupt. The Roman government was far worse than the US government yet Paul still demanded submission.

Maybe God had his reasons. Rome allowed Christianity to travel all over the known world for one. There was no better government around for another.

Looking at the American Revolution, it led not only to the greatest nation on earth, who has defended freedom around the globe, but also to the fall of the British Royalty controlling the UK and instead eventually just becoming a figurehead and democracy ruling through Parliament.

[KingsGambit]

The cartel issue is certainly cause for concern and one reason why complete elimination of border security isn't in the offing. I'd like to think the US could prepare to have better police infrastructure over time. I'd also suspect their abortion rate would fall if they had legal status opening the door to better healthcare and resources.

[KingsGambit]

Maybe God had his reasons. Rome allowed Christianity to travel all over the known world for one. There was no better government around for another.

Looking at the American Revolution, it led not only to the greatest nation on earth, who has defended freedom around the globe, but also to the fall of the British Royalty controlling the UK and instead eventually just becoming a figurehead and democracy ruling through Parliament.

No doubt this is true. I'm still working through the whole Romans 13 issue in my own head. I think it's more complicated than most people make it out to be.

[Darth Executor]

The cartel issue is certainly cause for concern and one reason why complete elimination of border security isn't in the offing. I'd like to think the US could prepare to have better police infrastructure over time. I'd also suspect their abortion rate would fall if they had legal status opening the door to better healthcare and resources.

Mexico has universal health care and abortion is a lot more expensive than contraception.

[Darth Executor]

Looking at the American Revolution, it led not only to the greatest nation on earth, who has defended freedom around the globe, but also to the fall of the British Royalty controlling the UK and instead eventually just becoming a figurehead and democracy ruling through Parliament.

How is the fall of the British Royalty a good thing? They've been replaced by a gang of pedophile liberals who ushered in an age of Satanic degeneracy not seen since its pagan days.

[KingsGambit]

The former is only a violation if it fails. In this case it didn't, so the latter is a bigger violation as the former is not a violation at all.

Revolution is not a violation if it succeeds? Where do you get that from the text?

[Sparko]

How is the fall of the British Royalty a good thing? They've been replaced by a gang of pedophile liberals who ushered in an age of Satanic degeneracy not seen since its pagan days.

Because that is who the people elected. Beats an inbred Royal family that goes around chopping heads off people at their slightest whim.

[Zymologist]

Both are a violation.

If the Revolution was a violation of Romans 13, then why do you consider the government that was spawned from that legitimate? This seems very inconsistent to me.

[KingsGambit]

If the Revolution was a violation of Romans 13, then why do you consider the government that was spawned from that legitimate? This seems very inconsistent to me.

It's a bit of a paradox; all governments are legitimate, according to Paul there... but it does appear there's no way to legitimately establish one. I think this all points toward a focus on citizenship in God's kingdom regardless of what circumstances are around us (such as the Roman Empire in the case of the first readers).

[KingsGambit]

BTW I'm going to see if we can get this Romans discussion split off to Christianity 201.