The CIA Torture Report

[Cow Poke]

Yikes that was a lot of acid.

Nope, just the facts.

So far you've repeated that its one-sided,

Do you dispute that?

but I haven't heard you list much if any problems with it. Do you have access to alternative evidence of an equal or greater strength that support something other than what I've said. I'm reading the articles seer linked to, I don't mind reading something you have to share.

What good do you expect to come of it?

[pancreasman]

What crimes need to be shouted form the rooftop?

What I mean is this:

Guy goes into a store and holds it up at gunpoint. He breaks the law. He is arrested by police. He is given a fair public trial and his conviction or not guilty verdict is a matter of public record.

Another guy tortures 'a bunch of folks'. He breaks the law. Why is his treatment different to the first guy?

PS: I'm getting dizzy trying to keep up with the two torture threads. Can't we combine them?

[Cow Poke]

What I mean is this:

Guy goes into a store and holds it up at gunpoint. He breaks the law. He is arrested by police. He is given a fair public trial and his conviction or not guilty verdict is a matter of public record.

Another guy tortures 'a bunch of folks'. He breaks the law. Why is his treatment different to the first guy?

One is a matter of law enforcement and due process. The other is a matter of national security in a time of war. Depending, of course, on whether one thinks we're actually at war with 'a bunch of folks' who are sawing heads off of innocent people, raping and murdering civilians, exterminating Christians, and generally causing mayhem and havoc and not playing well with others.

PS: I'm getting dizzy trying to keep up with the two torture threads. Can't we combine them?

Am I in that one, too?

[phank]

I guess now we get to decide whether it makes us more comfortable or more righteous to believe Democratic Truth or Republican Truth. It becomes entertaining when all us outsiders have to go by is completely contradictory reports, and spokesmen both claiming the other guys are lying through their teeth from top to bottom. There is probably some Real Truth (tm) buried in there somewhere, but how could we know? The source of that Real Truth (tm) is one lying politician or another, so it's false or gospel depending on which politician says it.

[Cow Poke]

I guess now we get to decide whether it makes us more comfortable or more righteous to believe Democratic Truth or Republican Truth. It becomes entertaining when all us outsiders have to go by is completely contradictory reports, and spokesmen both claiming the other guys are lying through their teeth from top to bottom. There is probably some Real Truth (tm) buried in there somewhere, but how could we know? The source of that Real Truth (tm) is one lying politician or another, so it's false or gospel depending on which politician says it.

Which is exactly why mommy and daddy need to stop having screaming fights in front of the kids.

[Leonhard]

Do you dispute that?

What's factually wrong about the report?

What good do you expect to come of it?

One good is that that we get yet another confirmation that 'enhanced interrogation' [fancy word for torture] isn't really worth it.

Secondly, when has this been public verifiable knowledge? If its ever been knowledge, its been knowledge on the same level of the suspicion that the US had a stealth plane project before it was announced, or that your intelligence service was trying to gain control of the internet, until it was finally revealed. Before that we only had stuff like local reports of a nurse refusing orders to force-feed a prisoner, stating in good conscience that this would be illegal.

Thirdly its public knowledge now, that the US citizens were lied to about this, and that the CIA doesn't trust the US government and kept information from them and apparently is trying to act as its own mini-government, something which is a fairly bad problem. This means people will at least be motivated to vote for people who will change this.

Fourthly it puts some shame on the Americans, for something an intelligence agency of theirs did. Which is good in the face of an injustice being performed. Just as the Roman Catholic Church had to face up to some shame for what some of its priests did.

That's what I'm trying to compare this to in my head. As an apologist I can point out the cases, when they occured, that they were mostly in the past, and that the Church has done a lot to change policies so that it doesn't happen again.

If that is the case we can look at the historical reasons why this happened. Like seer has pointed out there was a state of panic after the attack, mistakes were made. Panic like that, certainly does something to alleviate the moral culpability for doing things like hanging a man from his wrists, while his ankles were broken.

In one of the articles he posted, some information seems to have been gained from a limited number of detainees (though the reports agrees with this, looking into the 20 most viable candidates). The utility and independence of which is somewhat disputed.

In zero cases were any information about 'imminent attacks' gained. This is basically what many are trying to say that it did, but its undisputed that no such information was ever gained. No apologist for this can try to say that it was nescessary to do these things, in order to prevent imminent attacks.

Furthermore it was clear that much of what was done, was done in haste, and there was little internal control over who was to do what to whom, and what the real protocols were.

One of the examples was a detainee, who was subjected to prolonged sleep deprivation, lasting 180 hours. This raises the blood pressure and vastly increases the likelihood of cardiac arrest (which becomes virtually unavoidable at the end - this is a reason the Guinness Book of Records refuses to accept new challenges to it), he was given blood thinners to avoid that... it was stopped only because someone finally told those in charge that they had to let the subject rest 8 hours for every 48 hours of sleep deprivation. This lack of control is simple historically accidental incompetence, and not attributable to malice.

At least we should always attribute incompetence, when we don't have direct evidence of malice.

[pancreasman]

One is a matter of law enforcement and due process. The other is a matter of national security in a time of war. Depending, of course, on whether one thinks we're actually at war with 'a bunch of folks' who are sawing heads off of innocent people, raping and murdering civilians, exterminating Christians, and generally causing mayhem and havoc and not playing well with others.



Am I in that one, too?

So are you saying that in time of war and matters of national security the rule of law is not applicable? With what authority then did we prosecute Nazis at Nuremberg?

[Cow Poke]

So are you saying that in time of war and matters of national security the rule of law is not applicable?

Of course not.

With what authority then did we prosecute Nazis at Nuremberg?

I can pretty well guarantee it wasn't based on a completely partisan report from the US Congressional Democrats. That was based on the "Inter-Allied Resolution on German War Crimes".

And did you just Godwinize this thread?

[pancreasman]

Of course not.



I can pretty well guarantee it wasn't based on a completely partisan report from the US Congressional Democrats. That was based on the "Inter-Allied Resolution on German War Crimes".

And did you just Godwinize this thread?

Please see my reply in the other thread. Sheesh!

[Cow Poke]

Please see my reply in the other thread. Sheesh!

Ah! To whom that was directed was ME!

[pancreasman]

AND ... I didn't say anybody was like Nazis. I AGREE that Nuremberg was justified. I further believe if US citizens tortured or unlawfully imprisoned people they should be investigated and brought to justice, not just quietly to avoid embarrassment, but in public. Justice must be seen to be done because frankly I have no confidence in any aspect of your country's government to ensure justice is done EXCEPT in the full light of day.

[Cow Poke]

AND ... I didn't say anybody was like Nazis.

I was kidding, Pman. Perhaps I'm wrongly assuming we're just having a calm discussion, and I shouldn't be light-heartedly sparring with you.

I AGREE that Nuremberg was justified.

Never doubted that for a moment.

I further believe if US citizens tortured or unlawfully imprisoned people they should be investigated and brought to justice,

Yes, by due process - not by trial in the media.

not just quietly to avoid embarrassment, but in public.

This is where we will probably need to agree to disagree. Just like your "man who robbed the store" was not tried in the media (unless, of course, a white guy killed a black guy or something), we do have "due process" in the States.

Justice must be seen to be done because frankly I have no confidence in any aspect of your country's government to ensure justice is done EXCEPT in the full light of day.

And I have no confidence in any aspect of our current politicians - of EITHER party - to conduct a "light of day" investigation that is not completely politically motivated.

[pancreasman]

I was kidding, Pman. Perhaps I'm wrongly assuming we're just having a calm discussion, and I shouldn't be light-heartedly sparring with you.



Never doubted that for a moment.



Yes, by due process - not by trial in the media.



This is where we will probably need to agree to disagree. Just like your "man who robbed the store" was not tried in the media (unless, of course, a white guy killed a black guy or something), we do have "due process" in the States.



And I have no confidence in any aspect of our current politicians - of EITHER party - to conduct a "light of day" investigation that is not completely politically motivated.

we are still being lighthearted. I'm cool. I like the idea of due process if only I could see it. How about the appointment of a special prosecutor to investigate and indite if necessary?

[Cow Poke]

we are still being lighthearted. I'm cool. I like the idea of due process if only I could see it. How about the appointment of a special prosecutor to investigate and indite if necessary?

I wouldn't be at all opposed to a special prosecutor. I just wish somebody had thought of that before spending 40 Million dollars on a "report" that is generating FAR more heat than light.

[robrecht]

I suspect no one has ever won a war by being more ethical than their enemies, 'though the victors may make this claim with few around to contest it. On the other hand, we have not won this was against al Queda/ISIS/terror and I don't think we will. If we are not willing to occupy territory and defend it with our lives, to the last man, whatever the cost, whatever the tactics, for 100 years or more, then we are just playing into their hands, because they are willing to do this and more. Our leaders have done what they thought was politically expedient in the short term, with no regard for sensible long-term geo-political strategy. In the long-term we will only look foolish and weak by half measures that can only accomplish the establishment of permanent opposition to us in a destabilized region that will be ruled by an enemy that we ourselves have given legitimacy. We never should have invaded Afghanistan (let alone Iraq) if we were not willing to colonize the country, but once we did, we did have a couple of opportunities to declare victory and leave, but we foolishly kept throwing good money after bad, and lives. All we needed to do in 2001 was work with whatever regional power that would give us Osama bin Laden's head on a platter, and promise them in return a seat at the table in negotiating with Israel for a permanent peace in the region. If the negotiations only succeeded in identifying one more moderate player in the region, that would be a an enormous success. Instead, we have squandered all of the international good will that was extended toward us after 9/11 and have produced a more chaotic and dangerous region. We did get bin Laden, finally, but only after producing thousands more in the next generation.