Ferguson Grand Jury...

[Zymologist]

I don't understand why the opinions of the guys who have actually been cops and who have direct experience with this sort of thing don't seem to be worth anything. This is just weird.

[Cow Poke]

I don't understand why the opinions of the guys who have actually been cops and who have direct experience with this sort of thing don't seem to be worth anything. This is just weird.

It's called "confirmation bias".... they want SO BAD to believe Wilson screwed up, that everything they read is through that prism, and they totally bought into the media spin instead of waiting for actual facts.

But, I agree.... weird!

[alaskazimm]

I don't understand why the opinions of the guys who have actually been cops and who have direct experience with this sort of thing don't seem to be worth anything. This is just weird.

'cause don't you know they are just covering for a brother officer who so obviously screwed up? Blue wall of silence and all that.

[Cow Poke]

I think the real problem here is that there is such disparity between....

The MEDIA version, which had a poor black kid "hands up" being shot by a racist white police officer...

and the FACTS, which are totally divorced from that narrative.

Fortunately, the Grand Jury examined the FACTS, not the hype.

UNFORTUNATELY, the "demonstrators" refused to accept the FACTS in favor of the media hype.

[myth]

Alright then. I was just trying to reconstruct what I believed whag's argument to be.


A success rate of over 90% seems to be worth using with reasonable confidence.


Hang on, let me make sure I'm not conflating anything here. I was under the impression that the mace Wilson referred to was the product sold on Mace.com, which says "Mace Pepper Spray"--that is, I thought "Mace" was the brand name for a type of pepper spray. Meanwhile, what you describe seems to be referring to the slightly different type of spray called mace, yet you're calling it pepper spray. What's going on here? This Berkeley police bulletin says that pepper spray causes immediate inflammation of the respiratory system, which seems to conflict with your "4-8 seconds" claim. (It immediately takes effect but the subject somehow doesn't feel pain for several more seconds?) Additionally, it also states that "Individuals, such as the mentally disturbed or those under the influence of intoxicants, who have a high tolerance to pain, are still subject to the inflammatory effects of Pepper Spray." This is supported by the information page here, which says "Even if the subject cannot feel pain due to drugs, alcohol or being emotionally disturbed, the inflammatory effects of pepper spray cause the eyes to close temporarily when the ocular area is saturated."

And if Wilson had the substance that's different from pepper spray, then that begs the following question--if mace is less effective than pepper spray, then why wasn't he carrying the more effective substance?


This, too, conflicts with what I've read. For instance, as Taser.com (which, I mean, is the company that manufactures tasers) declares here, "TASER Cartridges Separate TASER CEWs from the Competition. With ranges from 15 to 35 feet (4.5 to 10.6 meters), and accuracy that can't be matched, they are the choice for law enforcement everywhere." There can hardly be a maximum deployment range of 15 feet if this product listed on the website has a range of up to 35 feet.


Which is why I believe that he (and the Ferguson police department as well, I suppose) didn't handle/prepare for possible dangerous situations as well as they could have and should have.


But he individually didn't need to "win" a fight. He said he was planning on buying time for backup to arrive; retreating would accomplish that as well.


Well, as I said, he supposedly considered using pepper spray BEFORE the gun while his life was literally in immediate danger (when he was allegedly being punched), but didn't consider using pepper spray when his life wasn't in immediate danger? That's an inconsistent line of thought. It makes sense to use a gun when one's life is in immediate danger, and significantly less sense when one's life is not in immediate danger. Seems rather straightforward to me. Wilson's basically saying "I was hesitant to use a gun when he was basically upon me trying to kill me, but I was trigger-happy when he was quite a distance from me."

Mace and pepper spray are not really the same thing, but because Mace was such a name brand a lot people still refer to pepper spray as Mace. They're similar, though. I assumed that any modern police department would be using pepper spray (a.k.a "OC", or oleoresin capsicum") because it is an improvement on the original. I could be wrong, though. I have no idea what Ferguson PD carries.

That said, you're welcome to read all the literature you want and buy completely into manufacturer hype. I've based my statements off of recollection from when I went through the certification program to use the item, reactions I've seen in real life, and from personal experience when I was sprayed with it. If you don't want to believe me, I'm not going to bend over backwards to convince you.

Regarding the taser...I'm glad you feel motivated to research the product. A little more research and you would have better grasp on the subject. I do need to pause and correct my earlier post - when I said 15 feet, I should have said 21 feet. Same principles apply, but I had the number wrong.

Tasers have cartridges that are attached to the front of the device. The cartridge contains the metal probes (straightened fish hooks, in case you're curious), the wires, and a gas propellant. These types of cartridges are single-use only. Different cartridges are used for different purposes. The cartridges I use (and...well, everyone other department I've seen) have a maximum distance of 21 feet. The 35 feet cartridges are intended for a different application because their minimum practical deployment distance is greater (in other words, you have to be so many feet away from the target or the probes won't spread enough to get a good hit). There are a few other options, but I based my statements off of what are commonly used.

I don't have time to address your last paragraph about what happened after Wilson got out of the car, but I'll be happy to do so shortly.

[myth]

But he individually didn't need to "win" a fight. He said he was planning on buying time for backup to arrive; retreating would accomplish that as well.


Well, as I said, he supposedly considered using pepper spray BEFORE the gun while his life was literally in immediate danger (when he was allegedly being punched), but didn't consider using pepper spray when his life wasn't in immediate danger? That's an inconsistent line of thought. It makes sense to use a gun when one's life is in immediate danger, and significantly less sense when one's life is not in immediate danger. Seems rather straightforward to me. Wilson's basically saying "I was hesitant to use a gun when he was basically upon me trying to kill me, but I was trigger-happy when he was quite a distance from me."

I can just as easily argue that it was Officer Wilson's sworn duty to arrest Brown. It's hard to arrest someone you're running away from.

I think Officer Wilson had already dismissed the use of lower force options because of how far the situation had progressed. As long as Brown continued in the same manner (i.e. the same level of aggression), I think deadly force was still justified. From everything I've read, Brown ran away from Officer Wilson, who chased him. Then, Brown stopped and charged at Officer Wilson. At this point Officer Wilson began launching .40 rounds at Brown, hoping to stop him. Brown didn't stop until one of those rounds struck his head. This was apparently corroborated by SOME witness testimony, as well as the placement of physical evidence like blood, the body, and shell casings.

Personally, if I shoot a man and he begins charging at me while I'm still pointing a gun at him...I can only assume he means to kill me, because I've already shot him. It's become a life or death show-down, and I'll do whatever I can to win.

[Cow Poke]

I can just as easily argue that it was Officer Wilson's sworn duty to arrest Brown. It's hard to arrest someone you're running away from.

I think Officer Wilson had already dismissed the use of lower force options because of how far the situation had progressed. As long as Brown continued in the same manner (i.e. the same level of aggression), I think deadly force was still justified. From everything I've read, Brown ran away from Officer Wilson, who chased him. Then, Brown stopped and charged at Officer Wilson. At this point Officer Wilson began launching .40 rounds at Brown, hoping to stop him. Brown didn't stop until one of those rounds struck his head. This was apparently corroborated by SOME witness testimony, as well as the placement of physical evidence like blood, the body, and shell casings.

Personally, if I shoot a man and he begins charging at me while I'm still pointing a gun at him...I can only assume he means to kill me, because I've already shot him. It's become a life or death show-down, and I'll do whatever I can to win.

Yeah, that.

[jordanriver]

are there not enough black cops to put in black communities?

(asking because I really don't know)

[Darth Executor]

The type of mediocre blacks who would make good cops are in high demand by white people looking to prove they're not racist so they have no reason to settle for a US Army tour of duty in Detroit or Ferguson.

[myth]

are there not enough black cops to put in black communities?

(asking because I really don't know)

I can only speak to what I have personally observed in the areas I've lived in, so keep that in mind.

But...no, they're aren't enough. I think it's a product of the cultural environment that a lot of black people grow up in (hate or distrust of law enforcement). Quite frankly, there are very few black applicants to the field in our community. And some of those applicants are not qualified by either state standards or local preferences. It makes it difficult to hire racial minorities when a lot of the qualified ones have no interest in working a low-paying job in law enforcement.

[lilpixieofterror]

Pepper spray, however, supposedly has immediate effects and causes involuntary closure of the eyes and respiratory inflammation, thereby preventing the subject from seeing and breathing properly--and it seems to me that it's rather difficult to "fight through it" and attack someone when you can't breathe properly or see where the person is.

Have you ever had any of these things happen to you or not? My guess is you haven't, based upon your ignorance and inability to refute a word anybody says. There are video's, online, if you so desire, of people putting up a fight, even when sprayed in the face with pepper spray. Of course, you don't really care about the truth and what excuses to rant and rave, so you will not bother to do this too. Adrenaline and drugs, can do some pretty amazing things to you. Women as skinny as me, have been known to pick up some pretty heavy objects, to save their trapped children. I've also seen pictures and video's taken decades ago, of monks lighting themselves on fire, and just sitting in a calm position until they died from it. Your lack of knowledge, just keeps showing itself more and more. Don't worry though, your excuse making just exposes how uninterested you are in the truth and how you'll keep making excuses for criminals that assault police officers and get shot as a result. If Michael Brown didn't want to get shot, it is pretty simple. Don't assault armed police officers.

I have sources from the Taser company itself that seem to dispute your claim about "very limited range," and Johnson wasn't the one allegedly running towards Wilson, so there wouldn't be any need to use a taser on him.

Of course they will not tell you the limits of their stuff because they want to sell it. A gun has a far longer range and more accurate range, than a taser does and a taser can't deal with multiple suspects. Remember, your criminal buddy wasn't alone. A fact you keep ignoring (most likely because you just don't care). Again, it seems quite simple to me. You don't want to get shot by a police officer, don't assault police officers. Seems simple enough to me.

I am absolutely not defending criminal behavior. I'm simply defending a person's right to life, no matter what sort of horrendous thing he might've done.

If a person wants the 'right to live' than don't attempt to take the lives of others. Not that hard to figure out, but again, when you defend criminals and attempt to demonize police who defend themselves, this is the stuff that happens as a result. Even your race baiting mind should be able to figure it out, don't want to get shot by the police, don't assault the police and be a law abiding citizen. Seems simple enough.

That would certainly help things, but no--that implies that people who do assault the police deserve to be killed, which I don't agree with at all. Do you not believe in an infinitely great God who has the power to forgive and reform even the most hardened, vicious criminals?

When you assault the police officer in an attempt to steal his duty weapon, what do you expect? I believe that God is a God of mercy and a God of justice. Why do you want to forget that our God is also a God of justice that will punish the unrepeated? A God of mercy, that ignores justice, isn't any better of a God that a God that ignores mercy. What about the police officer that was violent attacked? What about the store owner that was violent attacked? Where is your justice for them or did that get lost in the fact they are not black, so they don't matter to you? What matters is the facts and well... the facts are there for anybody to read. Michael Brown violent assaulted a store owners moments before he had his fatal encounter. The evidence points that the chain of events points out that your dear friend assaulted an officer in an attempt to steal his duty weapon, ran away when shot, changed his mind, and charged where he was finally fatally shot. It seems rather simple, when you live a life of violence and crime, your life could end rather violent too. Lesson here, don't live a life of crime.

[fm93]

What makes you think pepper spray is more effective than Mace?

This police bulletin, for one:

Because Pepper Spray causes a number of physiological effects on a person—even those with elevated pain tolerance due to prior use of alcohol and/or other drugs—it is different than Mace, which relies mainly on pain compliance. Individuals, such as the mentally disturbed or those under the influence of intoxicants, who have a
high tolerance to pain, are still subject to the inflammatory effects of Pepper Spray.

And this information page from a certain brand of pepper spray:

The biggest advantage pepper spray provides the user, whether law enforcement or civilian, is the involuntary eye closure. Even if the subject cannot feel pain due to drugs, alcohol or being emotionally disturbed, the inflammatory effects of pepper spray cause the eyes to close temporarily when the ocular area is saturated.

It's what we call "corroborative" evidence -- Wilson's testimony was that Brown was enraged. The Grand Jury, who looked at ALL the actual facts, evidence, and testimony under oath --- not just the news media's hype that you keep relying on --- chose to "no bill" him.

That doesn't answer what I said at all. We've been explicitly told that no psychoactive substance besides marijuana was found in his body. Marijuana causes psychotic rage and suicidal aggression?

A) It is Wilson's choice to make based on the circumstances at the time
2) The Grand Jury, with all facts and testimony available to them, obviously believed Wilson.

The first one is precisely that which I don't believe is right. He had started firing when Brown was quite a distance away. It doesn't make sense that just because someone was an immediate threat, you can use deadly force when a person is too far away to constitute such a threat. As I pointed out earlier, someone who runs a 6-second 40-yard dash is still traversing twenty feet per second, and Wilson said he had time to fire the fatal shot when Brown was eight to ten feet away. Brown, then, apparently wasn't moving very quickly. By the claims in his own testimony, Wilson should have had time to shoot a taser or use pepper spray and then scamper out of the way and buy some time and breathing room if it didn't work.

[fm93]

That said, you're welcome to read all the literature you want and buy completely into manufacturer hype. I've based my statements off of recollection from when I went through the certification program to use the item, reactions I've seen in real life, and from personal experience when I was sprayed with it. If you don't want to believe me, I'm not going to bend over backwards to convince you.

The first source was from police, who presumably also went through a certification program and have seen reactions in real life.

Tasers have cartridges that are attached to the front of the device. The cartridge contains the metal probes (straightened fish hooks, in case you're curious), the wires, and a gas propellant. These types of cartridges are single-use only. Different cartridges are used for different purposes. The cartridges I use (and...well, everyone other department I've seen) have a maximum distance of 21 feet. The 35 feet cartridges are intended for a different application because their minimum practical deployment distance is greater (in other words, you have to be so many feet away from the target or the probes won't spread enough to get a good hit). There are a few other options, but I based my statements off of what are commonly used.

So why don't officers use the types with longer ranges?

[Cow Poke]

The first one is precisely that which I don't believe is right.

You have a right to be profoundly wrong, again.

He had started firing when Brown was quite a distance away.

The first shot was IN THE PATROL VEHICLE.... are you REALLY THAT DENSE?

[Cow Poke]

The first source was from police, who presumably

This is your biggest problem --- you don't deal in FACT, you PRESUME way too much.