American Christianity�s White-Supremacy Problem

[MaxVel]

The racist narrative wrt floyd involved focussing on whatever drugs were in his system and the potential something happened off camera that might have justified, at least initially, the officers use of the knee on his neck. The focus should have been on what happened to him and the evil in what the policeman did.

The white racist narrative always searches for ways to transfer blame to the black man. That doesn't mean sometimes it's not the black man's fault, but that is what that narrative does. And it has come up in each of these killings where it was in reality irrelavent to what happened. Some of it was just people parroting the narrative from their preferred conservative news sources, esp breitbart which has a strong racist bent.

If that's the case, how does one distinguish between the 'white racist narrative' - which seeks to blame the black person, and genuine inquiry into what exactly happened, and what degree of responsibility each actor played in an event?


Secondly, presumably there is also a 'black racist narrative'** that also runs in parallel in these kinds of events, which seeks to exonerate the black person of any responsibility for what happened, and blame the 'racist system', or
'racist cops', or whatever?

Thirdly, and most importantly, can't it ever both be true that a black person made some poor (or bad, or even criminal) choices and the police officers acted wrongly, or poorly, or irresponsibly? In the example of George Floyd, it seems likely that he had overdosed on fentanyl and the officers failed to act appropriately and get him help quickly enough.

[seer]

The racist narrative wrt floyd involved focussing on whatever drugs were in his system and the potential something happened off camera that might have justified, at least initially, the officers use of the knee on his neck. The focus should have been on what happened to him and the evil in what the policeman did.

The white racist narrative always searches for ways to transfer blame to the black man. That doesn't mean sometimes it's not the black man's fault, but that is what that narrative does. And it has come up in each of these killings where it was in reality irrelavent to what happened. Some of it was just people parroting the narrative from their preferred conservative news sources, esp breitbart which has a strong racist bent.

Why was this event racist Jim?

[MaxVel]

Not really. There is a racist element that degrades specifically the black population built into white american culture. The more a person embraces those elements, The more likely they are to express those thought processes. And just because you are not white does not mean you can't act in concert with those elements wrt the black population - they don't involve or require any direct hostility or hatred towards black people. The people here like yourself that categorically reject even the possibility of systimic racism will not even listen to arguments that expose it or try to define it. So you are completely blind to it and it has no difficulty finding its expression through you.

That's not true. And especially the bolded part.

Again you resort to blaming others for your own inability to present convincing arguments.

It's an easy escape route - 'The reason they don't agree with me is because they're ignorant / in denial / evil / listening to demons'** is both fallacious and shuts down your own ability to listen to other's points of view and get your own positions closer to truth.

It's no different than the fundy Christian who thinks that all atheists are consciously denying what they know deep down to be true. Or the fundy Atheist who thinks that all Christians are brainwashed and ignorant of science.

You should be better than this, especially since you hold yourself out as someone who wants to know whatever the truth is, no matter what; and as someone who is moral and qualified to guide others.


How about you start a thread on 'Systemic racism'? Present a definition, and some examples, with sources. Perhaps choose examples that don't involve current politicians and events, if possible. As the OP you can have people who troll or flame, removed from the thread. Keep your discussion to the topic, what it is, and reasons for or against it, and I think others will follow.




** I note that these are all opinions you've expressed in the past with respect to other posters here.

[oxmixmudd]

That it was reprehensible and inexcusable.



I wonder what the mob of leftist thugs narrative is concerning the cold-blooded murder of Aaron Danielson, considering there are videos of them celebrating after it took place.

The racist narrative wrt floyd involved focussing on whatever drugs were in his system and the potential something happened off camera that might have justified, at least initially, the officers use of the knee on his neck. The focus should have been on what happened to him and the evil in what the policeman did.

The white racist narrative always searches for ways to transfer blame to the black man. That doesn't mean sometimes it's not the black man's fault, but that is what that narrative does. And it has come up in each of these killings where it was in reality irrelavent to what happened. Some of it was just people parroting the narrative from their preferred conservative news sources, esp breitbart which has a strong racist bent.

[seer]

The people here like yourself that categorically reject even the possibility of systimic racism will not even listen to arguments that expose it or try to define it. So you are completely blind to it and it has no difficulty finding its expression through you.

There you go, if you don't buy into systemic racism you are automatically a supporter systemic racism! Silence is violence...

[oxmixmudd]

Not sure what the 'white conservative narrative' is wrt FLoyd's killing is, but as far as the rest I'm guessing my positions are the same as seanD on those issues. And I am neither white, nor am I conservative, nor am I Christian. So maybe you need to adjust your narrow (and racist) viewpoints.

Not really. There is a racist element that degrades specifically the black population built into white american culture. The more a person embraces those elements, The more likely they are to express those thought processes. And just because you are not white does not mean you can't act in concert with those elements wrt the black population - they don't involve or require any direct hostility or hatred towards black people. The people here like yourself that categorically reject even the possibility of systimic racism will not even listen to arguments that expose it or try to define it. So you are completely blind to it and it has no difficulty finding its expression through you.

[rogue06]

Not sure what the 'white conservative narrative' is wrt FLoyd's killing is

That it was reprehensible and inexcusable.



I wonder what the mob of leftist thugs narrative is concerning the cold-blooded murder of Aaron Danielson, considering there are videos of them celebrating after it took place.

[rogue06]

Do you consider any American who leans towards liberal politics to be a threat, or detrimental, to your country?

You will be writing next that Mr Stone's suggestion has some merit! https://www.rawstory.com/2020/09/tru...tes-democracy/

Perhaps that question is better asked of the leftists in the U.S. It is pretty obvious that many of them not only see anyone who doesn't agree with them as a "threat, or detrimental" they see them as being so evil that they literally shun them even if they're life long friends or close relatives, want them fired from their job, and even physically assaulted. Some, like two upper level campaign staffers for Bernie Sanders, even talked about sending political opponents to "gulags" (their word) for re-education. And then there's folks like Michael Reinoehl and James Hodgkinson who demonstrate that for some none of that goes nearly far enough.

[Gondwanaland]

If you are going to flame me, at least get your facts correct. You have taken the side of essentially the white conservative narrative wrt the arbery shooting and the kenosha shooting and the floyd murder and the floyd protests. I view that narrative as racist. I could care less what color you are, if you've adopted that narrative about those events, you've adopted what I believe to be a racist narrative.

Not sure what the 'white conservative narrative' is wrt FLoyd's killing is, but as far as the rest I'm guessing my positions are the same as seanD on those issues. And I am neither white, nor am I conservative, nor am I Christian. So maybe you need to adjust your narrow (and racist) viewpoints.

[seanD]

I defend people that are wrongly attacked - in this case being told to be silent because she's not an american. Her views on the Christian faith are another matter, and I've tried to discuss some of them with her. But not with the presupposition she's evil dung like most of the rest of you. Christian faith is not a good old boys club, where outsiders are treated like dirt, and insiders get a pass no matter what they do. Christian faith is a about a relationship with God through Christ that produces real change in who we ARE, not who we purport to be. And it is also about winning the lost to Him, not building walls that keep them out. I'm not sure a lot happens here other that wall building, between Christians and non-Christians alike.

And unfortunately I'm part of that. But it's true nonetheless. For me, its about truth. Whatever is the truth. Jesus said He was the way, the truth, and the life. He also said that God is a God of Truth, and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in Truth.

That means lies, half truths, unsubstantiated conspiracy theories, false accusations, twisting the facts to fit an agenda or a goal, none of that can be reconciled with faith in Christ, or with serving God's purpose in the world.

Just your typical sanctimonious holier than thou tripe.

[seanD]

If you are going to flame me, at least get your facts correct. You have taken the side of essentially the white conservative narrative wrt the arbery shooting and the kenosha shooting and the floyd murder and the floyd protests. I view that narrative as racist. I could care less what color you are, if you've adopted that narrative about those events, you've adopted what I believe to be a racist narrative.

My accusations of racism stem on the continued blaming of black victims here and the continued attempts - again consistent with teh white conservative narratives about those events - to place the blame on the black person killed, and excuse the white person that killed them. When people continually adopt that approach, the are dealing with some level of racism whether they know it or not. You are an odd case in that you identify as mixed race, yet are pretty solidly allied with those same white conservative narratives that I view as being racist.

Take whatever label you want for that.

That's not true. I don't "identify" as mixed race. I am. My father was black so take whatever label you want for that. I also have lived in a minority community off and on for most of my adult life, so take whatever label you want for that as well.

I take the side of facts, not BLM delusion and lies. Since I know BLM is full of lies, including and not withstanding how it came into prominence (which was based on a lie about how Mike Brown was killed), I'm cautiously objective about these racially sensitive situations. That's not what makes someone a racist. Emotion, hysteria, and projection such as what you engage in, causes division, pain, death and destruction like what we're seeing now.

As far as Floyd, that was probably the closest to it being unjust and possibly racial out of all the encounters I've seen. But lo and behold now we know from the cam footage that it was wasn't based on racism whatsoever. Floyd not only complained he couldn't breath BEFORE they dragged him out of the back of the police car and onto the ground, but that he actually requested they put him on the ground, and that he most likely OD'd. That's NOTHING like what we were led to believe prior and what caused all this chaos in the streets. However, I still think Chauvin had personal animosity against Floyd, but that's just an opinion.

See, I go with the facts, not the delusion. You go with the delusion, and that causes chaos and suffering, thus makes you an advocate of that.

[oxmixmudd]

I'm basing it on any one thing you said, but a pattern of things you say.

And it's not about "siding" with one over the other, it's much deeper than that; it's more emotional. Would you defend someone on the constant attack of one of your family members of whom you deeply loved? Of course you wouldn't because it's a natural reaction to defend something you (supposedly) hold deep affection for when it's getting relentlessly attacked. What makes it worse is that the things HA is saying about our faith are based on lies and misinformation. She claimed our gospels were racist and antisemitic, and as I pointed out to her, she's flat out wrong. You do this all the time with every atheist hostile to our faith. I'm not saying you should objectively attack her, I just don't understand how you could even think to defend a person like that on any sort emotional level as a Christian who (supposedly) has a special affection for the Christian faith.

I defend people that are wrongly attacked - in this case being told to be silent because she's not an american. Her views on the Christian faith are another matter, and I've tried to discuss some of them with her. But not with the presupposition she's evil dung like most of the rest of you. Christian faith is not a good old boys club, where outsiders are treated like dirt, and insiders get a pass no matter what they do. Christian faith is a about a relationship with God through Christ that produces real change in who we ARE, not who we purport to be. And it is also about winning the lost to Him, not building walls that keep them out. I'm not sure a lot happens here other that wall building, between Christians and non-Christians alike.

And unfortunately I'm part of that. But it's true nonetheless. For me, its about truth. Whatever is the truth. Jesus said He was the way, the truth, and the life. He also said that God is a God of Truth, and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in Truth.

That means lies, half truths, unsubstantiated conspiracy theories, false accusations, twisting the facts to fit an agenda or a goal, none of that can be reconciled with faith in Christ, or with serving God's purpose in the world.

[oxmixmudd]

It doesn't matter what race you are that determines if your racist or not according to Ox. He's accused me of having "racist tendencies" even after I'm sure he knew I was mixed race living in a predominantly minority community. Anyone's a racist that disagrees with him on these issues, which is a sure sign he's doing what liberals obsessed with race do best when they're quick to throw out that accusation against others -- projecting his own racism.

If you are going to flame me, at least get your facts correct. You have taken the side of essentially the white conservative narrative wrt the arbery shooting and the kenosha shooting and the floyd murder and the floyd protests. I view that narrative as racist. I could care less what color you are, if you've adopted that narrative about those events, you've adopted what I believe to be a racist narrative.

My accusations of racism stem on the continued blaming of black victims here and the continued attempts - again consistent with teh white conservative narratives about those events - to place the blame on the black person killed, and excuse the white person that killed them. When people continually adopt that approach, the are dealing with some level of racism whether they know it or not. You are an odd case in that you identify as mixed race, yet are pretty solidly allied with those same white conservative narratives that I view as being racist.

Take whatever label you want for that.

[seanD]

You have a bizarre way of misinterpreting everything I say seanD. I go for the truth. I don't pay attention to the labels the people talking give themselves. I don't side with Christians that are wrong in intellectual arguments, and I don't side against Atheists that are right. And each argument is its own. The current thread I'm dealing with seers nationalistic bent where his only argument against HA's posts are that she in not an American citizen. That is a really silly reason to disagree with someone. "You don't live here so you have no right to say anything at all". Very tribal.

If she's wrong, then show her she's wrong, or at least come up with a well reasoned argument that supports your contention she is wrong.

I'm basing it on any one thing you said, but a pattern of things you say.

And it's not about "siding" with one over the other, it's much deeper than that; it's more emotional. Would you defend someone on the constant attack of one of your family members of whom you deeply loved? Of course you wouldn't because it's a natural reaction to defend something you (supposedly) hold deep affection for when it's getting relentlessly attacked. What makes it worse is that the things HA is saying about our faith are based on lies and misinformation. She claimed our gospels were racist and antisemitic, and as I pointed out to her, she's flat out wrong. You do this all the time with every atheist hostile to our faith. I'm not saying you should objectively attack her, I just don't understand how you could even think to defend a person like that on any sort emotional level as a Christian who (supposedly) has a special affection for the Christian faith.

[oxmixmudd]

Once again, Ox throws Christians under the bus and accuses them of being racist in defense of someone who not only has a clear anti-American bent, but has a clear anti-Christian bent and has attacked the Christian faith with false accusations and false information here incessantly.

I apologize to you for accusing you of not being a real Christian because I had no right to that, but, man, that is just odd behavior I'd expect from a Christian.

You have a bizarre way of misinterpreting everything I say seanD. I go for the truth. I don't pay attention to the labels the people talking give themselves. I don't side with Christians that are wrong in intellectual arguments, and I don't side against Atheists that are right. And each argument is its own. The current thread I'm dealing with seers nationalistic bent where his only argument against HA's posts are that she in not an American citizen. That is a really silly reason to disagree with someone. "You don't live here so you have no right to say anything at all". Very tribal.

If she's wrong, then show her she's wrong, or at least come up with a well reasoned argument that supports your contention she is wrong.