Pastor Defies State Orders...

[oxmixmudd]

Source: https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/07/17/892250597/covid-19-surge-has-some-church-leaders-re-thinking-whether-to-reopen

The drive to reopen churches around the country appears to be losing momentum as a result of the surge of COVID-19 cases.

Pastor surveys by the Barna Group have found that the share of churches reporting a return to in-person worship fell from 56% in June to 49% in the most recent survey. The Barna surveys, reported by Christianity Today, also showed that 5% of pastors now say their churches will not resume in-person worship until 2021.

A previous Barna survey found 0% of pastors expecting their churches to remain shuttered for the rest of this year.

Among the churches planning to suspend in-person worship for all of 2020 are the six locations of North Point Ministries in the Atlanta area. In pre-coronavirus times, more than 30,000 people worshipped across the North Point churches each weekend.

Andy Stanley, the founding North Point pastor, announced in May that his churches would reopen on Aug. 9, but in a video message sent to his congregants this week, Stanley said those plans had to change.

"We've decided to suspend adult worship services for the remainder of the year," Stanley said in a sober tone of voice. He cited the "uptick" in the number of coronavirus cases in the Atlanta area.

"Consequently, we cannot guarantee your safety," Stanley said.

"Even if we did reopen," Stanley said, "we certainly would not be able to create a quality adult or children's worship experience with social distancing protocols in place."

Some prominent megachurch leaders, however, do not intend to follow Stanley's example.

"I'm not buying the gloom and doom," said Jack Graham, senior pastor at Prestonwood Baptist in Plano, Texas, and a prominent evangelical supporter of President Trump.

"Starting school, opening churches and growing America's economy is in motion," Graham tweeted Thursday. "Positivity beats politics every time."

Collin County, where Graham's church is located, as of this week had reported nearly 5,000 novel coronavirus cases, a 20% increase over the previous week's total.

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Thanks for the reasonable post shuny. I always enjoyed listening to Andy Stanley's father, Charles Stanley. At least wrt this issue It sounds like he continues the legacy well and is putting the well being of his congregants ahead of more pedantic issues and that he takes his responsibility over such a large group of people seriously.

[Cow Poke]

Truly sad cp. Again only ad hom, again no content. So full of hate you must hide the content of the post. So full of hate you have no good thing to say. I'll pray for you CP, lest such hatred truly consume you.

You are sounding more and more like your lost friends all the time, Jim.

[NorrinRadd]

Grace Church is live.

In spite of the fact that Caesar changed his mind and ordered them to be closed.

And since the agreement was overturned, the church flipped off the masking and social distancing they'd provisionally agreed to.

Such a rare joy to find myself on the same side as J-Mac.

[oxmixmudd]

In spite of the fact that Caesar changed his mind and ordered them to be closed.

And since the agreement was overturned, the church flipped off the masking and social distancing they'd provisionally agreed to.

Such a rare joy to find myself on the same side as J-Mac.

So, in my experience arrogance is not something God honors. So while standing up to state orders to close might be an act of faith and faithfulness, ditching the masks and distancing is not.

[mossrose]

In spite of the fact that Caesar changed his mind and ordered them to be closed.

And since the agreement was overturned, the church flipped off the masking and social distancing they'd provisionally agreed to.

Such a rare joy to find myself on the same side as J-Mac.

Yes. They were perfectly willing to do masks and distancing as the judge had asked them to do, until the hearing on September 04. But the county was not satisfied with that compromise and had the ruling overturned late Saturday.

[mossrose]

So, in my experience arrogance is not something God honors. So while standing up to state orders to close might be an act of faith and faithfulness, ditching the masks and distancing is not.

Since the county refused to compromise and allow them to do as the judge had said they could, why would they feel honour bound to stick to their agreement. It seems your own arrogance and self-righteous Pharasaical attitude is more at fault than theirs.

[oxmixmudd]

Since the county refused to compromise and allow them to do as the judge had said they could, why would they feel honour bound to stick to their agreement. It seems your own arrogance and self-righteous Pharasaical attitude is more at fault than theirs.

Because not wearing masks in the crowded building endangers their congregants and the wider community they interact with. Because it is the responsible caring thing to do, and scripture commands us to be at peace, as much as is possible, with non believers. And in addition, we are commanded to obey the laws of the government to the point they do not conflict with what God asks of us.

[mossrose]

Because not wearing masks in the crowded building endangers their congregants and the wider community they interact with. Because it is the responsible caring thing to do, and scripture commands us to be at peace, as much as is possible, with non believers and in addition. We are commanded to obey the laws of the government to the pointvthe do not conflict with what God asks of us.

When the government tells us that we cannot have indoor church indefinitely, and the appellate court ruled on Saturday that GCC, and GCC ONLY, could not have indoor OR outdoor church, do you not think that the government at that point oversteps its' authority, and the church at that point should obey God instead?

Tell me, ox, at what point would you disobey the government in regards to obeying God instead?

[oxmixmudd]

When the government tells us that we cannot have indoor church indefinitely, and the appellate court ruled on Saturday that GCC, and GCC ONLY, could not have indoor OR outdoor church, do you not think that the government at that point oversteps its' authority, and the church at that point should obey God instead?

Tell me, ox, at what point would you disobey the government in regards to obeying God instead?

I already said that standing against a direct order not to meet can be an act of faith, just two posts up i think. The issue here is arrogantly ignoring the physical danger to the entire community that prompted the order in the first place.

Ignoring the mask mandate is not an act of civil disobedience or faithfulness to God, but of foolish arrogance, and that usually doesn't turn out so well.

[Terraceth]

In spite of the fact that Caesar changed his mind and ordered them to be closed.

And since the agreement was overturned, the church flipped off the masking and social distancing they'd provisionally agreed to.

Such a rare joy to find myself on the same side as J-Mac.

While I can understand backing them in holding services, I don't see how them not using masks and social distancing is something to applaud them for.

[NorrinRadd]

Because not wearing masks in the crowded building endangers their congregants and the wider community they interact with.

Possibly. As noted elsewhere, they dispute the science. The fact that the revised order prohibits even outdoor meeting argues strongly in their favor that Caesar is more interested in putting his foot on the neck of people of faith than in applying "science."

Because it is the responsible caring thing to do, ...

Perhaps. *Assuming* the scientific "orthodoxy" is correct, there remains the question of whether the "responsible caring" thing to do is to prioritize life over liberty. And I don't just mean the liberty of GCC. GCC standing up for their own liberty thereby stands up for the liberty of all.

... and scripture commands us to be at peace, as much as is possible, with non believers. And in addition, we are commanded to obey the laws of the government to the point they do not conflict with what God asks of us.

Actually, Rom. 12:8 instructs us to try to be at peace with ALL, not just unbelievers. And 13:1-7 instruct us to submit to the authority of da gubmint, and do not carve out an exception for being in "conflict with what God asks of us."

And yet we know that the man who penned those verses was a frequent violator of both. That kind of conflict between the plain reading of different passages is what compels us to *interpret* them to come up with a workable synthesis before trying to apply them. And how that plays out IRL may vary from place to place and time to time.

I'm delighted to see people like Pastor Mac and Pastor Mc leaning in the direction of following Heb. 10:25; Rom. 16:16 (1 Cor. 16:20; 2 Cor. 13:12; 1 Thes. 5:26; 1 Pet. 5:14); Eph 5:19 (Col. 3:16); Psa. 149-150.

[Cow Poke]

Because not wearing masks in the crowded building endangers their congregants and the wider community they interact with. Because it is the responsible caring thing to do, and scripture commands us to be at peace, as much as is possible, with non believers. And in addition, we are commanded to obey the laws of the government to the point they do not conflict with what God asks of us.

...and to pray for and honor those in leadership over us.

[JimL]

...and to pray for and honor those in leadership over us.

So, you would honor a Hitler, a Stalin, or a Putin?

[Cow Poke]

So, you would honor a Hitler, a Stalin, or a Putin?

Or remove myself from their rule. In this country, National Elections are a means for that.

[mikewhitney]

Possibly. As noted elsewhere, they dispute the science. The fact that the revised order prohibits even outdoor meeting argues strongly in their favor that Caesar is more interested in putting his foot on the neck of people of faith than in applying "science."




Perhaps. *Assuming* the scientific "orthodoxy" is correct, there remains the question of whether the "responsible caring" thing to do is to prioritize life over liberty. And I don't just mean the liberty of GCC. GCC standing up for their own liberty thereby stands up for the liberty of all.




Actually, Rom. 12:8 instructs us to try to be at peace with ALL, not just unbelievers. And 13:1-7 instruct us to submit to the authority of da gubmint, and do not carve out an exception for being in "conflict with what God asks of us."

And yet we know that the man who penned those verses was a frequent violator of both. That kind of conflict between the plain reading of different passages is what compels us to *interpret* them to come up with a workable synthesis before trying to apply them. And how that plays out IRL may vary from place to place and time to time.

I'm delighted to see people like Pastor Mac and Pastor Mc leaning in the direction of following Heb. 10:25; Rom. 16:16 (1 Cor. 16:20; 2 Cor. 13:12; 1 Thes. 5:26; 1 Pet. 5:14); Eph 5:19 (Col. 3:16); Psa. 149-150.

The interesting benefit of the US Constitution and state constitutions is that any action taken by the government which is not permitted by the constitutions is void and null from the time a law (or edict) is made. The governor is not given authority to shut down the church operations. (Some constitutions allow the governor certain powers such as to temporarily authorize a new location for the legislature to convene -- in cases of war where the legislature cannot meet at the approved location.) So the governor edicts violate both the freedom of religion and association plus a violation of the separation of powers. Then it would likely be a violation to use alternative means of enforcement, such as going after a company's permits for violating the governor's edicts. I would look at principles similar to constructive discharge against employees or shutting down an rent-delinquent tenants' water and power.