Pastor Defies State Orders...

[Cow Poke]

It isn't obvious to me that there's a topic change from v 17 to v 18.

Nor was it obvious, apparently, to most translators.

[mossrose]

Oops. I assumed oxmixmudd was referring to chapters. Not verses.

Sorry CP.

[Cow Poke]

Oops. I assumed oxmixmudd was referring to chapters. Not verses.

Sorry CP.

He kinda wrote it in a very non-standard manner, so it's understandable there could be confusion about whether he was talking about chapters or verses.

Point remains, Chapter 18, vs 15-20 are about restoring a brother. Vs 21 begins another discussion on the Parable of the Unforgiving Servant.

[mossrose]

He kinda wrote it in a very non-standard manner, so it's understandable there could be confusion about whether he was talking about chapters or verses.

Point remains, Chapter 18, vs 15-20 are about restoring a brother. Vs 21 begins another discussion on the Parable of the Unforgiving Servant.

Yes. No transition to "the power of prayer" in any of that, OR the next 2 chapters.

[Cow Poke]

Yes. No transition to "the power of prayer" in any of that, OR the next 2 chapters.

But, then again, I suppose it's possible every translator ever could be "out there", and Ox alone could be correct!

[mossrose]

But, then again, I suppose it's possible every translator ever could be "out there", and Ox alone could be correct!

[Cow Poke]

Yes. No transition to "the power of prayer" in any of that, OR the next 2 chapters.

I think it's interesting to note the context here, as every Jewish man (and many women) who were listening would absolutely get the "2 or 3 witnesses" principle to which Jesus referred (from Deut 17 and 19).

So, here's the "paragraph"... (ESV for simplicity)


Step 1 - go talk to him one on one
Step 2 - If step 1 doesn't work, take two or three with you (because the law said two or three witnesses are required/sufficient)
Step 3 - If step 2 doesn't work, take the matter before the Church

Then, in effect, Jesus is saying in verse 20 - and I'm with those 2 or 3 witnesses. He is putting His stamp of approval on discipline in the Church, fully realizing there WILL be problems.

[mossrose]

I think it's interesting to note the context here, as every Jewish man (and many women) who were listening would absolutely get the "2 or 3 witnesses" principle to which Jesus referred (from Deut 17 and 19).

So, here's the "paragraph"... (ESV for simplicity)


Step 1 - go talk to him one on one
Step 2 - If step 1 doesn't work, take two or three with you (because the law said two or three witnesses are required/sufficient)
Step 3 - If step 2 doesn't work, take the matter before the Church

Then, in effect, Jesus is saying in verse 20 - and I'm with those 2 or 3 witnesses. He is putting His stamp of approval on discipline in the Church, fully realizing there WILL be problems.

I absolutely agree.

[Zymologist]

I think it's interesting to note the context here, as every Jewish man (and many women) who were listening would absolutely get the "2 or 3 witnesses" principle to which Jesus referred (from Deut 17 and 19).

So, here's the "paragraph"... (ESV for simplicity)


Step 1 - go talk to him one on one
Step 2 - If step 1 doesn't work, take two or three with you (because the law said two or three witnesses are required/sufficient)
Step 3 - If step 2 doesn't work, take the matter before the Church

Then, in effect, Jesus is saying in verse 20 - and I'm with those 2 or 3 witnesses. He is putting His stamp of approval on discipline in the Church, fully realizing there WILL be problems.

This is how I've always understood it.

[oxmixmudd]

I think it's interesting to note the context here, as every Jewish man (and many women) who were listening would absolutely get the "2 or 3 witnesses" principle to which Jesus referred (from Deut 17 and 19).

So, here's the "paragraph"... (ESV for simplicity)


Step 1 - go talk to him one on one
Step 2 - If step 1 doesn't work, take two or three with you (because the law said two or three witnesses are required/sufficient)
Step 3 - If step 2 doesn't work, take the matter before the Church

Then, in effect, Jesus is saying in verse 20 - and I'm with those 2 or 3 witnesses. He is putting His stamp of approval on discipline in the Church, fully realizing there WILL be problems.

Steps 1 2 and 3 are in vs 15-17, 18-20 could be applied to that, but are more general than that. You are saying vs 20 can't be applied as I used it, and it most certainly can. This sort of super narrow scope for those last 3 verses simply can't be derived from the context.

That is the point. They don't JUST relate to discipline in the church, in fact, they don't appear to be directly targeting discipline at all, but the point made comes out of the topic of discipline in that Christ is with us in all of what we do, including discipline. It's going from specific application to the general application. And the last verse (vs 20) is applicable to all gatherings of believers.

[oxmixmudd]

This is how I've always understood it.

The point is the scope of the last 3 verses is broader than that, and saying they only apply to discipline is not driven by what they say but rather something else. They are broad statements about the power of prayer and Christs commitment to be with us when we gather together doing His will - whatever that is.

[Cow Poke]

Steps 1 2 and 3 are in vs 15-17, 18-20 could be applied to that,

Because that's what the "paragraph" is --- you DO realize that there were no chapter or verse references in the original Greek, yes?

but are more general than that.

That's your opinion.

You are saying vs 20 can't be applied as I used it,

Nope - I am not saying that at all.

and it most certainly can.

If you take it out of context, perhaps.

This sort of super narrow scope for those last 3 verses simply can't be derived from the context.

A) it's not "super narrow" in scope
2) it's the context that's driving this

That is the point. They don't JUST relate to discipline in the church, in fact, they don't appear to be directly targeting discipline at all, but the point made comes out of the topic of discipline in that Christ is with us in all of what we do, including discipline. It's going from specific application to the general application. And the last verse (vs 20) is applicable to all gatherings of believers.

Verses 15 through 20 do, indeed, appear to be a 'paragraph' of thought, and a new 'paragraph' begins in vs 21... "Then Peter...".

[oxmixmudd]

Because that's what the "paragraph" is --- you DO realize that there were no chapter or verse references in the original Greek, yes?

Yes I do CP. But the point would be to somehow claim I'm ignorant, right. Isn't that the subtext here?

...


Nope - I am not saying that at all.

Then what is the point CP? I used the verse to say that God is with us when we gather, specifically regardless of whether it is in a home, in a park, in zoom meeting etc. And you and mossross all over me for saying that and for using this verse to say God is with us when we do that, as if this verse can't be used to say that.

[Cow Poke]

The point is the scope of the last 3 verses is broader than that, and saying they only apply to discipline is not driven by what they say but rather something else. They are broad statements about the power of prayer and Christs commitment to be with us when we gather together doing His will - whatever that is.

They SPECIFICALLY refer to (and you can tell this because it's 'one paragraph') the discipline of the Church where Jesus assures them He will be there as they seek to restore unity.

vs 18 begins "Truly I tell you", which reinforces vs 17.
vs 19 begins "again, I tell you..." which is on the same point.
vs 20 begins with "for", which is like "therefore", and means that we need to see what it's "there" for.

"Here's how you handle discipline...."
"2 or 3 witnesses are recognized as sufficient"
"I am right there with those '2 or 3'.

Young's Literal Translation:

Scripture Verse: Matt 18

15 `And if thy brother may sin against thee, go and show him his fault between thee and him alone, if he may hear thee, thou didst gain thy brother; 16 and if he may not hear, take with thee yet one or two, that by the mouth of two witnesses or three every word may stand. 17 `And if he may not hear them, say [it] to the assembly, and if also the assembly he may not hear, let him be to thee as the heathen man and the tax-gatherer. 18 `Verily I say to you, Whatever things ye may bind upon the earth shall be having been bound in the heavens, and whatever things ye may loose on the earth shall be having been loosed in the heavens. 19 `Again, I say to you, that, if two of you may agree on the earth concerning anything, whatever they may ask -- it shall be done to them from my Father who is in the heavens, 20 for where there are two or three gathered together -- to my name, there am I in the midst of them.'

© Copyright Original Source

It's very common for people to rip vs 20 out of the context of "the paragraph" of vs 15-20.

[Whateverman]

This is how I've always understood it.

Hey, totally unrelated to your post:

I've brewed beer for decades, and thought your name might be a misspelled reference to it. I looked it up - and found that I was wrong! Zymurgy and zymology both refer (roughly) to the same thing.

Neat :)