Originally posted by Cow Poke
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Are All White People Racist?
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"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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Firstly, hello Leonhard, it's always a pleasure to read your posts, and even more so to discuss things with you.
Confession time: I responded only to the excerpt you had posted. Mea culpa. I have now read the text of the interview, and will briefly address that here. I do plan to respond to the rest of your post, but don't have time right now.
I also accept that this, being an interview, is not necessarily the best or most accurate statement of her beliefs. Perhaps she makes a better case in her book. I'll quote from the article you cited.
(1) White fragility
Well, when I coined that term, the fragility part was meant to capture how little it takes to upset white people racially. For a lot of white people, the mere suggestion that being white has meaning will cause great umbrage. Certainly generalizing about white people will. Right now, me saying white people, as if our race had meaning, and as if I could know anything about somebody just because theyre white, will cause a lot of white people to erupt in defensiveness.
So, so far, she has racially profiled and stereotyped people - although it may be true that some (or even most) white people (Americans) respond defensively/ negatively when approached in this way, that does not mean that the approach / claim is true; and she has poisoned the well by claiming that people who disagree with her racial stereotype are doing so because they can't deal with their problem (of being unconsciously racist)
People of color working and living in primarily white environments take home way more daily indignities and slights and microaggressions than they bother talking to us about because their experience consistently is that its not going to go well. In fact, theyre going to risk more punishment, not less. Theyre going to now have to take care of the white persons upset feelings. Theyre going to be seen as a troublemaker. The white person is going to withdraw, defend, explain, insist it had to have been a misunderstanding.
But
(a) I think that everyone has the right to have their own culture, and to follow that culture. Especially if they are the majority culture in a particular society.
(b) People's motivations are more important than their actions. That is, we have to make allowances for innocent offense caused through ignorance, or simply because they do things differently than we do. For example, commenting to someone that they 'have put on weight' is something of a compliment in the majority culture where I live, but a minor insult in my culture. So I have to understand that when people say that, they intend it as a compliment, and I have to take it as such. If I know the person well enough I might explain to them that it comes across to me as slightly rude.
(c) People from a minority culture can just as easily give offense to people in a majority culture. I can easily offend people here, just by acting as I normally would in my own culture. Even if I don't offend them, I can come across as rude, ill-mannered and disrespectful. Is it their responsibility to accept my way of doing things, or my responsibility to adjust (to some degree) to their culture?
I think intentions are irrelevant. Its nice to know you had good intentions, but the impact of what you did was harmful. And we need to let go of our intentions and attend to the impact, to focus on that.
Again I think this is problematic. If you did have good intentions, then you should be given a pass (so to speak) on what you said or did. Perhaps it can be gently explained that what you said or did was unintentionally hurtful. But I think that there has to be a two-way thing going here, where a person's actual intentions are part of the content of their act. If I intend a compliment, but it comes across to someone as an insult, once the matter is explained, they should take it as it was meant by me - as a compliment. If they stalk off in a huff, and refuse to listen to a clarification, or refuse to attempt to understand my culture, then they are seeking to be offended, and they are, frankly, welcome to it. And yes, I have had this experience when dealing with people who come from the majority culture here. Including people publicly dressing me down because they misunderstood my meaning, and refusing to accept my explanation. So, yeah, intentions are definitely NOT irrelevant.
Foundationally [we] have to change our idea of what it means to be racist. As long as you define a racist as an individual who intentionally is mean, based on race, youre going to feel defensive.
Now if she wants to talk about this:
When we understand racism as a system that we have been raised in and that its impact is inevitable, its really not a question of good or bad. Its just, I have it. I have been socialized into it. And so, What am I going to do about it? is really the question. And thats where, I think, maybe some guilt could come in, when you know that and youre still not going to do anything about it. I dont struggle with guilt because, to the best of my ability, I am trying to challenge my socialization. So, let me be really clear: As a result of being raised as a white person in this society, I have a racist worldview. I have racist biases. I have developed racist patterns as a result, and I have investments in the system of racism.
If I accept her redefinition of racism, then I have no reason to do anything about my actions if I do meet her new definition. It's just part of my cultural background and no more wrong or right than any other cultural tic I might have. It's saying that I have been socialised into my culture, which happens to be the dominant one in America, and I expect people to fit in with that culture, by and large. Great. So what? Nothing of interest follows from that, especially when we realise that she offers no objective external standard to compare aspects of different cultures. Why should I be expected to modify or abandon aspects of my culture to make people from a minority group feel more comfortable? Should I adapt their culture instead of mine? Why? If I do do that, should I and they (now the majority) then change to fit in with the new minority culture (which used to be the majority)? It's an incoherent relativistic mess.
I offer instead the following:
Every human has inherent value and dignity, regardless of race or ability, since we are all made in God's image. Therefore racism is a true evil, and must be addressed.
Racism can be overcome when we each find our core identity in and through our relationship with God, our creator.
We must all stop looking at each other through the lens of race. Let us judge each other by the content of our character.
We must stop carelessly throwing around accusations of 'racism'. Instead, like a disease, actual racism must be carefully and objectively identified so that it can be dealt with.
We must deal with people, all people, as unique individuals, and take the time to understand their background, beliefs, and motivations. When we do that, we can 'convert' racists into normal people. Daryl Davis is a superb example of how effective this can be....>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...
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It's all just one, big kaftatrap: accuse you of unspecified "crimes" (for example: microaggressions, white fragility, white privilege, etc.), and if you deny it, that just proves you're guilty.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Brief summary of the issues I see with this White Fragility book:
Problem: Everyone is guilty, on an individual level, of doing this terrible thing.
Criticism: Is proof that you're guilty.
Solution1: Constant cooperate training that shifts all blame away from general policies onto employees.
Solution2: Buy more of her books.
REAL solution: None. Just repeat solution1&2.
So much of the language is comparable to the understanding of original sin, packaged up in an idea palatable to those at the top, and with the sole benefit of making money and social capital for those who endorse it. There's no hope of redemption, but buy the book and support the cause to prove you're a good person. (Or at least, not a bad one who must be shunned). It isn't morality, it doesn't require radical change, and it doesn't ask difficult questions of anyone who has the power or resources to defend themselves.
...So of course it's popular.
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostIf that is, in actual fact, Biden's profile he seems to be equal in comparison with that other old creepy, racist, groper, and voyeur that is currently resident at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.
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Originally posted by seer View PostThis is the recipe for race wars or at least gulags.
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Originally posted by Gondwanaland View PostNo. Not even a majority or a large minority are. And there are plenty of racists of other races out there. In fact in my lifetime as someone of Indian (the country) descent with a wife of native American descent (and several kids who are clearly not white), I've experienced more racism from black and Hispanic people toward me and my family than I have from white people.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostVery very true as witnessed by the recent history of the Dixiecrats of the South.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostOn several occasions both Teal and I have demolished your little fantasy by repeatedly pointing out that nearly all the old Dixiecrats remained firmly ensconced in the Democrat Party until the day they died and that the South didn't shift Republican until several decades after their time.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostOn several occasions both Teal and I have demolished your little fantasy by repeatedly pointing out that nearly all the old Dixiecrats remained firmly ensconced in the Democrat Party until the day they died and that the South didn't shift Republican until several decades after their time.
You apparently are a true believer, and save your Confederate money and flags.
This is a fairly factual history of the political evolution of the South in recent history.Last edited by shunyadragon; 08-11-2020, 07:13 PM.
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Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostIn your view Napolean won the Battle of Waterloo. Your trying to rewrite the real history. The South most definitely went Republican in response to the Civil Rights and Voting Rights Laws, and the shift integration.
You apparently are a true believer, and save your Confederate money and flags.
This is a fairly factual history of the political evolution of the South in recent history.
If the South went Republican as a result of legislation passed in the early to mid 60s then why did it take a couple of decades before that change started taking place? What were the racists waiting for?
Further, that civil rights legislation would have never passed without overwhelming support by Republicans in both the House in Senate. There is after all a reason that the NAACP presented Senate Minority Leader Everett Dirksen a civil rights accomplishment award in recognition of his yeoman service in getting the Civil Rights and Voting Rights Acts passed. So why in the world would racists defect en masse from the Democrats -- many of whom led the resistance to passing civil rights legislation -- and join the party responsible for pushing it through?
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostComing from someone who has claimed that Dixiecrats were Republicans
If the South went Republican as a result of legislation passed in the early to mid 60s then why did it take a couple of decades before that change started taking place? What were the racists waiting for?
Further, that civil rights legislation would have never passed without overwhelming support by Republicans in both the House in Senate. There is after all a reason that the NAACP presented Senate Minority Leader Everett Dirksen a civil rights accomplishment award in recognition of his yeoman service in getting the Civil Rights and Voting Rights Acts passed. So why in the world would racists defect en masse from the Democrats -- many of whom led the resistance to passing civil rights legislation -- and join the party responsible for pushing it through?
As noted in the reference Strong Thurmond's boycote of the Civil rights legislation and run for the president.
Last edited by shunyadragon; 08-12-2020, 10:00 PM.
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