secret forces in oregon cities, as in DC

[Leonhard]

AH! I really have no idea. This is like deaths in COVID arguments. Those who want to minimize the threat of COVID will scour the web for figures that back up their claims, and the Doom and Gloomers will find every death report possible to maximize their claim.

Same here - those who are against the anarchists will maximize those figures, and those who hate Trump will come up with stuff like "just some jerk kid throwing a rock through a window".

So, yeah, it's really hard to tell.

Yeah I feel like I'm walking back and forth between two groups one of them talking like the whole city is burning down, the other one saying they slept through the whole thing and didn't notice it outside of the news talking about it, or mentioning a few burning garbage cans and some broken windows.

Between those two extremes I'm sure we have the real picture, I just wish it wasn't so murky.

[Cow Poke]

Yeah I feel like I'm walking back and forth between two groups one of them talking like the whole city is burning down, the other one saying they slept through the whole thing and didn't notice it outside of the news talking about it, or mentioning a few burning garbage cans and some broken windows.

Between those two extremes I'm sure we have the real picture, I just wish it wasn't so murky.

We know for sure that those six city blocks were turned into "no cop" zones, and were pretty "wild west", where people were actually murdered.
We also know that they laid siege to a police station, and the cops were forced to abandon it.
We know that they tried to burn down the Police Association building, and lit fires in other buildings.
We also know that there have been relentless assaults on the Federal Courthouse, attempting to burn it down, and barricading exits.

But, yeah, I'm sure there are vast portions of Portland that seem like "life is normal".

[Leonhard]

We know for sure that those six city blocks were turned into "no cop" zones, and were pretty "wild west", where people were actually murdered.
We also know that they laid siege to a police station, and the cops were forced to abandon it.
We know that they tried to burn down the Police Association building, and lit fires in other buildings.
We also know that there have been relentless assaults on the Federal Courthouse, attempting to burn it down, and barricading exits.

But, yeah, I'm sure there are vast portions of Portland that seem like "life is normal".

Indeed, that would track with a figure estimate I saw on Reddit of around 4 million $. And all of which is bad optics.

It will be interesting once the suspects have been rounded up to learn of their motives. That's kinda why I wish the police was more transparent in their process. There's been some rumors in the liberal circles I visit that some of the vandalists are alt-righters just trying to create a bad optics situation. It would be good to confirm that or show it to be improbable.

[Ronson]

Yo, nice to see you outside of CARM.

Ya! Another Libertarian (big L). We're a little misunderstood 'round these parts.

My thoughts on the vehicle: we've seen in countless cities that marked police/Law Enforcement vehicles are immediately targeted for attack and destruction/burning, so it's not a surprise to me that they'd be rolling in unmarked vehicles for something like this. I do agree the video seems a bit off, perhaps staged, though.

Once I heard the audio it seemed a little less staged (some law group shouting they would get him out of custody). But still ... odd.

[Cow Poke]

We seem to be getting pretty far from the OP, so let's quickly review it....

Begin with the obligatory HateTRump rant.....

This is beyond the pale - and really quite unnerving. We do not do this sort of thing in the US, and yet, Trump is doing it.

Long on emotion, short on fact.

The US attorney in Oregon has launched an investigation.

Cool - but "launching an investigation" is not evidence of wrongdoing.

These unidentified

Absolutely false, as has been proven.

(presumably legitimate) law enforcement agents

They most certainly are.

have been seen arresting peaceful protestors and hauling them off in SUV's.

SO MUCH assuming there. How peaceful? How many 'protesters'?

https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/18/us/po...ies/index.html

The video BEGINS by acknowledging these are FEDERAL OFFICERS (then refers to them as "unidentified"), then launches into a very biased report about DEMOCRAT committees and ACLU launching an investigations.... SHOCKING!!! Democrats investigating TRUMP!!! And "I CRINGE to think...... " reporting EDITORIALIZING about Portland, then moving on to hacking Twitter accounts....

More emotional ranting...

So this is not just a strange anomalous thing that showed up in DC during the Floyd protests. This is some sort of 'force' that Trump has created and is deploying wherever he thinks it is 'appropriate'.

Then false information...

They are not uniformed,

Already debunked

they do not identify themselves.

Nor are they required to.

Then emotional appeal...

I truly hope those posting here in favor of Trump

I'm not "in favor of Trump", I'm opposed to chaos and anarchy.

can recognize the very real and present danger of secret,

NOT secret.

heavily armed

The OP wanted the NATIONAL GUARD --- who is more heavily armed? This is the US ARMY.
(Though, following the disastrous "assistance" the National Guard provided at Kent State, they have had better riot control training)

and unidentified forces

They are CLEARLY identified.

Then, final round of OrangeManBad...

deployed at the behest of the president against the wishes of state governments across the United States.

Ending with a little emotional flair.

That's IT! A bunch of false information and emotional ranting.

[Cow Poke]

Indeed, that would track with a figure estimate I saw on Reddit of around 4 million $. And all of which is bad optics.

It will be interesting once the suspects have been rounded up to learn of their motives. That's kinda why I wish the police was more transparent in their process. There's been some rumors in the liberal circles I visit that some of the vandalists are alt-righters just trying to create a bad optics situation. It would be good to confirm that or show it to be improbable.

I do know, for example, that the MSM is seriously downplaying the "peaceful protesters", like when they dismissively report "graffiti" on the Federal courthouse. It's not just "graffiti", it is hate speech calling for the murder of police officers, plus, smashing of windows and attempting to breach and burn down the courthouse. There are people who actually go to work in that courthouse, and not just "cops". Security personnel, IT people, custodial staff, clerks, secretaries, admin staff.... they are under constant threat of bodily harm or even death.

[Charles]

This is beyond the pale - and really quite unnerving. We do not do this sort of thing in the US, and yet, Trump is doing it. The US attorney in Oregon has launched an investigation. These unidentified (presumably legitimate) law enforcement agents have been seen arresting peaceful protestors and hauling them off in SUV's.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/18/us/po...ies/index.html

So this is not just a strange anomalous thing that showed up in DC during the Floyd protests. This is some sort of 'force' that Trump has created and is deploying wherever he thinks it is 'appropriate'. They are not uniformed, they do not identify themselves.

I truly hope those posting here in favor of Trump can recognize the very real and present danger of secret, heavily armed and unidentified forces deployed at the behest of the president against the wishes of state governments across the United States.

Great post. Thanks.

I fear that the hope you describe in the last sentence is naive.

[Cow Poke]

Great post. Thanks.

I fear that the hope you describe in the last sentence is naive.

Lefties seem to love living in fear, and spreading gloom and doom.

[Cow Poke]

Great post. Thanks.

I fear that the hope you describe in the last sentence is naive.

So, let's see if you can articulate what's so great about it.
It's an emotional rant filled with a bunch of absolutely false claims.

What makes it great, Charles?

[Charles]

Lefties seem to love living in fear, and spreading gloom and doom.

The false statement your president made with regard to Covid that he had it all under control and the naive hope that like a miracle it would go away is a rather good example of why realism is better than lies and naive hope in miracles. People have died and are dying in your country because believers in "magical thinking" thought they could "hope" their way out of it.

It is better to be realisitic and keep people alive and to make sure the power of any force (police, military or whatever) is controlled so that justice can and will happen.

As a result, when you take the steps, you don't have to live in fear. If your president had not tried to aviod fear at the start of the corona crisis in your country there would be a lot less to fear these days. More people would be alive. Seems the pro-lifers, once again, are not too concerned about the life of those who are born.

Trump (who does not have much intergrity) is now saying that the corona situation is likely to get worse. Does that make him a leftist, a lunatic, is he spreading gloom and doom? You have all been so silent about it when he started to talk about all of this in more realistic terms. Is he taking your hope away?

[Cow Poke]

The false statement your president made with regard to Covid that he had it all under control and the naive hope that like a miracle it would go away is a rather good example of why realism is better than lies and naive hope in miracles. People have died and are dying in your country because believers in "magical thinking" thought they could "hope" their way out of it.

Charles, this is the Portland thread, not the Covid thread.

It is better to be realisitic

I absolutely agree, though I would spell it "realistic".

and keep people alive and to make sure the power of any force (police, military or whatever) is controlled so that justice can and will happen.

Is justice happening in Portland under the mayor and governor there, Charles? Are the rioters being brought to justice?

As a result, when you take the steps, you don't have to live in fear.

I don't live in fear, Charles. Living in fear is for cowards.

If your president had not tried to aviod fear at the start of the corona crisis in your country there would be a lot less to fear these days. More people would be alive. Seems the pro-lifers, once again, are not too concerned about the life of those who are born.

Hmmmmmm...... again, this is the Portland thread. You know, the one that started with an OP based on OMB and a whole bunch of nutty false claims.

Trump (who does not have much intergrity) is now saying that the corona situation is likely to get worse. Does that make him a leftist, a lunatic, is he spreading gloom and doom? You have all been so silent about it when he started to talk about all of this in more realistic terms. Is he taking your hope away?

OK, thanks for the derail. I guess.

[Whateverman]

Trump (who does not have much intergrity) is now saying that the corona situation is likely to get worse. Does that make him a leftist, a lunatic, is he spreading gloom and doom? You have all been so silent about it when he started to talk about all of this in more realistic terms. Is he taking your hope away?

With regards to people "loving" to "live in fear", it should noted that Trump's campaigns in both the 2016 and 2020 have been almost entirely based on fear. His supporters wallow in the stuff. His most recent Facebook ad (that we've discussed in this forum) pushes lies in order to make the reader afraid.

It would appear that - yet again - righties are projecting their foibles onto others.

[Cow Poke]

With regards to people "loving" to "live in fear", it should noted that Trump's campaigns in both the 2016 and 2020 have been almost entirely based on fear. His supporters wallow in the stuff. His most recent Facebook ad (that we've discussed in this forum) pushes lies in order to make the reader afraid.

It would appear that - yet again - righties are projecting their foibles onto others.

Good try, but it's the enemies of Trump who are pushing the whole "you're gonna get dead" culture --- global warming, COVID, 'unlawful' takeover of cities by the government..... What's next, black helicopters and aliens?

(and, just because I know it will be attacked, I'm not discounting that there are genuine concerns, but SHEEEESH, 24/7 YOU'RE GONNA DIE!!!! really gets old)

[JimL]

For those whining about using the military or those in military uniforms where governors and mayors didn't want them, a very short history lesson:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]46984[/ATTACH]

The Little Rock Nine
and their escort

[ATTACH=CONFIG]46985[/ATTACH]

In this instance the state refused to enforce a federal law, it had nothing to do with protesting or the phoney notion of protecting federal buildings.

[Charles]

[...]

(and, just because I know it will be attacked, I'm not discounting that there are genuine concerns, but SHEEEESH, 24/7 YOU'RE GONNA DIE!!!! really gets old)

It seems you fear the truth.

I cannot think of anyone who is saying what you claim in your straw man. However, the truth is, that a lot of people have died and unfortunately many more people will likely die because some people spread a false hope, false statements, false ideas about reality and the like. It created a false hope and the consequences are very hard to face. And now you try to avoid having to do so and obviosly live in fear of the truth since you cannot adress anything but a straw man. The rather easy lesson to learn is that if you create false hope because you refuse to live in fear, the reality you are going to live and (and that others might die in) is going to be so much worse.