Conservative values/principles

[carpedm9587]

I think it can be a factor, but I think it's more about the heart.

And the nuclear family has been under attack major bigtime.

Yeah!

I don't agree that the "nuclear family has been under attack." What I see is that the definition of "family" is broadening to encompass more models than the traditional "one male, one female parent." Indeed, I wonder how much less problem there would be if these other family models were not under constant attack - adding stress to the family. Acceptance and support for all family models would go a long way towards reducing the harm.

I do agree, however, that the wanton abandonment of children by their parents is a travesty. I have a nephew who has fathered two children he now has nothing to do with. He provides no support and doesn't even remember their birthdays. I find myself so angry at him I could spit. My wife and I have tried to stay in touch with the mothers and boys and be "uncle and aunt" to them, but it does not even come close to balancing that abandonment.

We have a similar issue with our own boys. Both are open adoptions, but one has a highly responsive birth mother and the other's doesn't respond at all. Both birth fathers are more or less non-responsive. Drives me crazy.

[Cow Poke]

I don't agree that the "nuclear family has been under attack."

I'm shocked. SHOCKED, I say.

What I see is that the definition of "family" is broadening to encompass more models than the traditional "one male, one female parent." Indeed, I wonder how much less problem there would be if these other family models were not under constant attack - adding stress to the family. Acceptance and support for all family models would go a long way towards reducing the harm.

I do agree, however, that the wanton abandonment of children by their parents is a travesty. I have a nephew who has fathered two children he now has nothing to do with. He provides no support and doesn't even remember their birthdays. I find myself so angry at him I could spit. My wife and I have tried to stay in touch with the mothers and boys and be "uncle and aunt" to them, but it does not even come close to balancing that abandonment.

We have a similar issue with our own boys. Both are open adoptions, but one has a highly responsive birth mother and the other's doesn't respond at all. Both birth fathers are more or less non-responsive. Drives me crazy.

One of the biggest problems in the African-American community is the abandonment of the family by the biological father. The "nuclear family" includes a father for a whole bunch of reasons.
The attack on the nuclear family began to accelerate with the advancing agenda of "women's lib".

Yeah, I know. You disagree.

[carpedm9587]

Sorry Carp, I don't believe you would change your views no matter the argument.

What you do or do not believe about me, Seer, is truly not my concern. It has zero impact on who and what I am.

OK, so if the purple people being 13% of the population committed 51% of the murders. The green people being 70% of the population commit 45% of the murders. Wouldn't you conclude that percentage wise the purple people were more violent? If not why not?

The statistic may be "true," but since the violence has nothing to do with being purple or green - the statistic is irrelevant and only contributes to the perception that "purple people are violent."

I noted earlier "black people are more violent than blonde people" is a phrase you NEVER hear - even though it is true. You never hear it because the color of the hair of the people committing the crime has noting to do with the commission of the crime - so it is irrelevant. Skin color is equally irrelevant. Continually quoting the statistic does nothing more than promote a harmful and racist narrative.

Carp how can I speak to length of incarnation rates when your study did not control for differing non-violent criminal history, and only compares one year of violent criminal history?

Read it again, Seer - carefully.

I captured the article, here you go: http://archive.is/OXbjA

Tell me exactly what you disagree with.

So many holes here. The way statistics are irrationally juxtapositioned to try to defend a position is almost laughable.

First, 235 out of 1004 is 23.5%, for a population that is 13% of the general population. The article links this percentage with "crime rate," but the crime rate would be altered by the racism itself - making it impossible to know what the crime rate would be if racism were NOT present in the police force.

9 out of 27 unarmed fatalities is 33% - when the percentage of black people in the population is 13%, supporting the data I offered in my previous post. That statistic has NOTHING to do with the disparate rates at which perpetrators kill cops versus cops kill perpetrators. Being a cop is a dangerous job - which is why I am so glad there are people out there willing to DO that job. It comes with implicit danger that leads several hundred each year to lose their lives. That fact and those statistics, however, are not relevant to the argument. They are placed here to tug at heartstrings - nothing more.

The third paragraph is generic and contains no data for me to respond to.

And the final paragraph is the classic "climate change" argument. Do you want to disprove global warming? Find one glacier that is expanding and continue to point to it as proof. Philadelphia is one city, albeit a large one. When examining the data across the breadth of the U.S., the trend lines are clear. Pointing to one city and saying, "see - it is not happening there" does not prove the problem does not exist in many (most?) of the other U.S. cities.

[carpedm9587]

OK I changed my Avatar just for you!

I am not surprised...

[Cow Poke]

OK I changed my Avatar just for you!

Is that the elevator operator from Macy's?

[carpedm9587]

I'm shocked. SHOCKED, I say.

You'll get over it...

One of the biggest problems in the African-American community is the abandonment of the family by the biological father. The "nuclear family" includes a father for a whole bunch of reasons.
The attack on the nuclear family began to accelerate with the advancing agenda of "women's lib".

Yeah, I know. You disagree.

Sort of. I think your focus is too narrow. "One of the biggest problems in the African-American community is the abandonment of family." 'Nuff said. That is happening due to both fathers and mothers, to different degrees. And where do you think the roots of that abandonment spring from, CP?

[Cow Poke]

Sort of. I think your focus is too narrow.

Of COURSE, you do - what self respecting pinko commie leftist would NOT?

"One of the biggest problems in the African-American community is the abandonment of family."

I believe I said, that, yes, cause I keep hearing that from my black "boss" who works with this every single day, and has a Master's in Sociopathy or something.

'Nuff said.

No, GOOFUS!* When somebody says "ONE of the biggest problems......", the door is WIDE open to others problems.

That is happening due to both fathers and mothers, to different degrees. And where do you think the roots of that abandonment spring from, CP?

A sin nature.



*CP does not think Carpe is a GOOFUS

[carpedm9587]

What I said was that Jim Crow laws as well as Jim Crow mindset made "stepping out of line" very expensive for black citizens. It is not a stretch to consider the impact of those consequences on those considering committing a crime. When a black child can be beaten to death for being accused of whistling at a white woman - it is not a stretch to assume they might think twice about stealing or killing.

Yeah...they can change. And when I see evidence that he has, I'll cut him a break. There are simply too many continuing stories of his antisemitic comments and outbursts for me to think that has happened, or for me to honor him by making him my avatar. You have a wealth of choices - so your selection is interesting. But then again, you defend Trump - so why am I not surprised...

As I was working outside today, I was reflecting on this post of mine. I'm going to withdraw my statements above. It became clear, as I thought it through, that I was having a knee-jerk reaction to the idea that something good might have come from Jim Crow. Clearly, if I am saying that the era of Jim Crow resulted in black people being less likely to commit crimes and interact with the police - it follows that "Jim Crow led to less crime in the black community."

Sometimes - good actions have undesirable outcomes.
Sometimes - ungood actions have desirable outcomes.

My previous post (above) was wrong in not acknowledging that.

[carpedm9587]

Of COURSE, you do - what self respecting pinko commie leftist would NOT?

That's MISTER Pinko Commie Leftist, to you!

I believe I said, that, yes, cause I keep hearing that from my black "boss" who works with this every single day, and has a Master's in Sociopathy or something.

The point, you redneck, texan, religious freak, is the emphasis on "biological father." You might note it was omitted in my sentence. DO I need to get you your glasses, rube?

No, GOOFUS!* When somebody says "ONE of the biggest problems......", the door is WIDE open to others problems.

Yes it is - and I'm providing you with a wider view of those problems...

A sin nature.

Yeah...not so much. Think about it, CP. For four hundred years, slavery destroyed black families, ripping father from mother and children from either. Even after the Civil War, the era of Jim Crow did continual damage to families as fathers were jailed, lynched, forced to find work away from homes, and so forth. Jim Crow ended a mere 60+ years ago. Do you not think such prolonged damage is likely to resonate forward in time to subsequent generations?

*CP does not think Carpe is a GOOFUS

*Carpe definitely thinks CP is a rednecked rube

[Cow Poke]

Yeah...not so much. Think about it, CP. For four hundred years, slavery destroyed black families.....

It is absolutely AMAZING* to me that so many black families seem to shake themselves free from those long ago shackles and take personal responsibilities for their lives.




*it's not amazing to me at all -- I see it all around me every single day.

[rogue06]

I'm shocked. SHOCKED, I say.

If you like movies and have never seen this movie do yourself a favor and watch it.

[Cow Poke]

If you like movies and have never seen this movie do yourself a favor and watch it.

You were just trying to force me to do an obligatory amen! I ain't gonna do it. I'm gonna REPORT you instead!!!

[seanD]

For the justice system, the evidence I cited is about the difference in how black and white people are sentenced. There is significantly more, though there are multiple new initiatives to gather this data to justify new initiatives to combat police racism. Some of the more recent work is described here. A few specifics include that black people are 2.5 times as likely to be killed by police as white people. Black people are twice as likely to be unarmed when fatally shot as white people. White officers are statistically more likely to draw their gun than black officers, and do so predominantly in black neighborhoods. In one study, white officers actually fired their guns at five times the rate o black officers, when visiting the same neighborhoods!.

And then, once arrested, black perpetrators will experience significantly harsher sentencing and significantly lesser "deals" than white perpetrators arrested for a similar crime.



None of which addressed any of the points I've made.



Crime is indeed indexed to poverty (and other factors), not skin color. The data about this is pretty widely available. Here is one example.



You cannot defend a statistical claim with anecdotal evidence. It is a logical error. It is akin to saying, "I have experienced that my neighbors are inconsiderate about when they mow their lawns, ergo people in general are inconsiderate about mowing their lawns." Presumably, you can see the problem...?



I have no doubt that your experience is what you describe it to be. From this I know that Sean's experience is that in his own community, violence is related to cultural influence in that community.



Interesting - I made the same response to my wife when it happened. She observed that my son's white cousins had been playing with the same toys under the same tree the previous two days. They too were visitors to the house, so unknown to the neighbors. Then, when my son goes out, the cops show up. An 8-year old boy. Still, my inclination was to give the people the benefit of the doubt. Maybe they hadn't seen the previous boys. Maybe they had been away and just came home. Too many unknowns. However, when it happened three more times in the next 3 years, and the other families in our adoption support group reported the same incidents with their black children, I began to accept that she was probably right. One such event is an anomaly. Several dozen is a pattern. I still cannot "prove" any single one of the was racism. But the pattern of all of them is compelling.



Agreed. What suggests the systemic nature of the racism is the widespread reports of those things, not only from my adoption support group, but from other families and from black people across the nation. One story is an anecdote. A single data point. Hundreds and thousands of them is a body of statistical evidence.

That blacks commit more crime does address the points you've made. If blacks commit the majority of violent crime (including against each other -- once again the data supporting my belief that it's self-inflicted), then it stands to reason blacks will have higher negative encounters with police, and cops will likely police black neighborhoods more aggressively not because of sentimental reasons or racism, but because of data -- you know, that thing called science. Poverty is at best circumstantial and debatable, at worst irrelevant here. Hispanics and American natives have about the same or higher levels of poverty. And isn't it ironic that many, if not most of the cities with the highest poverty/crime rates are run by Democrats, so one could also posit an argument that much of this is attributed to liberal politics. Point being, poverty is not a sound argument to explain black crime discrepancy. So all that is left for me to explain this is to base it on my "anecdotal" experiences of being a minority and living in a minority community and conclude it's cultural and self-inflicted. And I love how you hand-wave the fact we have numerous black elected government officials. Whites make up 60% of the US population; blacks 13%. Where is the national systemic racism? How and why are these black folks being elected? Or is it logical to conclude that racism is but a tiny portion of the white population, contrary to the type of systemic racism being claimed by BLM?

[seer]

The statistic may be "true," but since the violence has nothing to do with being purple or green - the statistic is irrelevant and only contributes to the perception that "purple people are violent."

I noted earlier "black people are more violent than blonde people" is a phrase you NEVER hear - even though it is true. You never hear it because the color of the hair of the people committing the crime has noting to do with the commission of the crime - so it is irrelevant. Skin color is equally irrelevant. Continually quoting the statistic does nothing more than promote a harmful and racist narrative.

Carp I'm using the terms found in studies, including government studies on race and crime. I don't see how you can dismiss the conclusion that the purple are more violent. At least as I said, in this particular time. If you go back to the 20s and 30s you might find that the Italians were committing a disproportionate amount of murders.

Read it again, Seer - carefully.

I did, so be specific where did they control for past non-violent criminal history. Please quote...

First, 235 out of 1004 is 23.5%, for a population that is 13% of the general population. The article links this percentage with "crime rate," but the crime rate would be altered by the racism itself - making it impossible to know what the crime rate would be if racism were NOT present in the police force.

9 out of 27 unarmed fatalities is 33% - when the percentage of black people in the population is 13%, supporting the data I offered in my previous post. That statistic has NOTHING to do with the disparate rates at which perpetrators kill cops versus cops kill perpetrators. Being a cop is a dangerous job - which is why I am so glad there are people out there willing to DO that job. It comes with implicit danger that leads several hundred each year to lose their lives. That fact and those statistics, however, are not relevant to the argument. They are placed here to tug at heartstrings - nothing more.

Oh please, it is clear that the higher crime rates more than offset the higher percentage of black deaths! Of course you are going to see more aggressive policing where crime is higher. Which have nothing to do with race, but everything to do with behavior. If these neighborhoods has the same crime rate as your neighborhood do you think you would see this disparity? Of course not.

And the final paragraph is the classic "climate change" argument. Do you want to disprove global warming? Find one glacier that is expanding and continue to point to it as proof. Philadelphia is one city, albeit a large one. When examining the data across the breadth of the U.S., the trend lines are clear. Pointing to one city and saying, "see - it is not happening there" does not prove the problem does not exist in many (most?) of the other U.S. cities.

It certainly is telling:Any evidence to the contrary fails to take into account crime rates and civilian behavior before and during interactions with police.

So you agree that is the case at least for Philly?

[rogue06]

You were just trying to force me to do an obligatory amen! I ain't gonna do it. I'm gonna REPORT you instead!!!

Sit down with a nice beverage and watch Casablanca instead.