We All Live On Stolen Land...

[Whateverman]

the atheist has no moral ground to judge any of this.

If true, it's better than the "moral ground" the Christian starts from, which allowed support of the persecution of Jews atheists African Americans and women, slavery, and the holocaust.

[seer]

How were those rights won? Were they generously granted simply because they were politely requested?

Well in the US it caused a Civil war, and yes there were protests for the women's vote, black voting rights, etc... But those protesters were largely peaceful.

Not in recent history on quite the same scale. No one is denying that, at least since recorded history, humans have engaged in warfare with other human groups.

There is still no rational reason to to go after white males alone - that to my mind is racist.

You might do well to read up on some primatology and palaeontology as well as some social anthropology.

Well I did pass Anthropology 101 and 102 with Bs back in 74-75. The point is nothing escapes our evolutionary upbringing (unless you believe in a soul).

That is a sweeping assumption premised on an unknown.

Should we have thrown down our fire arms and picked up spears? That is just silly.

Once again, on what evidence? How do you explain the connection between DNA and certain human cultural behaviours?

As Dawkins says: "DNA neither cares nor knows. DNA just is. And we dance to its music."

[seer]

If true, it's better than the "moral ground" the Christian starts from, which allowed support of the persecution of Jews atheists African Americans and women, slavery, and the holocaust.

Can you tell me which teachings of Christ they were following? Be specific...

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Can you tell me which teachings of Christ they were following? Be specific...

Well the persecution of the Jews goes back to verses found in the NT which contain distinct anti-Judaic/Semitic elements.

[seer]

Well the persecution of the Jews goes back to verses found in the NT which contain distinct anti-Judaic/Semitic elements.

All the first Christians were Jews, Jesus was a Jew. And where did Christ say to harm anyone or take revenge against anyone?

[Whateverman]

the atheist has no moral ground to judge any of this.

If true, it's better than the "moral ground" the Christian starts from, which allowed support of the persecution of Jews atheists African Americans and women, slavery, and the holocaust.

Can you tell me which teachings of Christ they were following? Be specific...

Christ-killers / antisemitism: Matthew 27:25, John 8:44, 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16

Slavery: Ephesians 6:5-8, Genesis IX:18-27, Genesis 1:26-31 (re. mud people)

Misogyny: Leviticus 12:2-5, Leviticus 15:19-27, Deuteronomy 21:10-14, Deuteronomy 22:5, Deuteronomy 22:23-29, Deuteronomy 23:17, Proverbs 5:3-8, Proverbs 5:20, Proverbs 6:24-26

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Having been specific, you'll generally hand-wave these away.

The atheist's moral ground is better than the Christian's, in that it lacks divine justification for persecution.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

All the first Christians were Jews, Jesus was a Jew.

Yet the four canonical passion narratives make it quite clear that it was the Jews who plotted to kill Jesus and that it was the Jews who demanded his death.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Well in the US it caused a Civil war, and yes there were protests for the women's vote, black voting rights, etc... But those protesters were largely peaceful.

You really do need to read up on your own history.

In the USA the decades between the Civil War and World War I were a period of labour unrest for both male and female workers.. Women achieved some working rights through activism and political struggle including the withdrawal of labour. Between the 1870s and early 1900s there were over 6000 strikes with particular activism among the New York and Chicago garment workers and the New England mills.

In the 1890s in the south politicians disfranchised poor white men though poll taxes and used violence to prevent Black American men from voting.

There is still no rational reason to to go after white males alone - that to my mind is racist.

Ah now we see your animus.

Unfortunately, the fact remains that within later western culture Imperialism along with notions of racial superiority originated in the thinking of predominantly white men and were often premised on religious texts and/or teachings.

Well I did pass Anthropology 101 and 102 with Bs back in 74-75. The point is nothing escapes our evolutionary upbringing (unless you believe in a soul).

Your early studies do not seem to have left a lasting impression. You are confusing culture and evolution.

Should we have thrown down our fire arms and picked up spears? That is just silly.

That was not my point.

As Dawkins says: "DNA neither cares nor knows. DNA just is. And we dance to its music."

[Sparko]

Precisely. The early Americans exercised a form of Imperialism. Colonists and settlers with vastly superior military technology moved into new territories, took them over either by massacring the indigenous peoples, driving them out, or reducing them to a subservient position.

The Europeans also did it across regions of the world. However, most modern European nations feel a sense of shame at the behaviour of their predecessors.

You mean they are virtue signalling.

[Sparko]

I am certain the leftist status will remain intact.

If these people were serious, :), they would come up with a chart, telling everyone who owns what, so we know where to move. Who knows, I may get a better house out of it in my new European country.

I would suspect that all black lives would move to Africa, most Hispanics would move back to Spain, and whites will go wherever they are supposed to go.

Those who are biracial will need to cut themselves up and deliver themselves appropriately. I guess it will be better to be a pure bred.

There are not many purebreds left anywhere. Especially with African-Americans.

[Sparko]

So you said we didn't steal land from native Americans. You were wrong.

Sure, they weren't all singing Kumbaya when we arrived, but that doesn't change the fact that we stole land from them, and then used the government to do the same thing legally.


So, rather than pretend no land was stolen, now you're demanding a solution to a complicated land dispute. Fun.[/COLOR]

Yeah I agree with that. We made treaties with them, then broke them. That was not honorable.

[Thoughtful Monk]

Yet the four canonical passion narratives make it quite clear that it was the Jews who plotted to kill Jesus and that it was the Jews who demanded his death.

Actually it was the Jewist leaders and elites that did this. There's no indication that the common Jew was involved in the plotting. (Yes, I know about the mob that chanted crucify him. I also know how easy it easy to form a mob and direct them at what you want.)

[seer]

Christ-killers / antisemitism: Matthew 27:25, John 8:44, 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16

Well of course the Jews, with the Romans we instrumental in the death of Christ. Are we supposed to harm them or take revenge? How are we told to deal with our enemies Whateverman?

Slavery: Ephesians 6:5-8, Genesis IX:18-27, Genesis 1:26-31 (re. mud people)

Yes slavery was a near universal institution, and? No where does Scripture say it is a moral evil or a moral good. It just allows it.

Misogyny: Leviticus 12:2-5, Leviticus 15:19-27, Deuteronomy 21:10-14, Deuteronomy 22:5, Deuteronomy 22:23-29, Deuteronomy 23:17, Proverbs 5:3-8, Proverbs 5:20, Proverbs 6:24-26

I'm not sure why you think these warnings and rituals are misogynistic - in any case I'm not a Jew living under the Mosaic civil code. I'm a Christian following the teachings of Christ.

The atheist's moral ground is better than the Christian's, in that it lacks divine justification for persecution.

Who needs divine justification to slaughter millions? Mao? Stalin? Pol Pot? The fact is in your world there are no universal moral truths, no moral moral truth is more valid or correct than its opposite.

[Whateverman]

Yeah I agree with that. We made treaties with them, then broke them. That was not honorable.

Exactly.

Land disputes are never easy to solve, but if I had my wish, it'd be that the US would immediately revert whatever they legally stole back to native Americans. I know this isn't possible in a practical sense, but it seems to be the closest thing to actual "justice" I can think of in this context.

[seer]

You really do need to read up on your own history.

In the USA the decades between the Civil War and World War I were a period of labour unrest for both male and female workers.. Women achieved some working rights through activism and political struggle including the withdrawal of labour. Between the 1870s and early 1900s there were over 6000 strikes with particular activism among the New York and Chicago garment workers and the New England mills.

I was speaking of voter rights. As in the right to vote. And those were largely peaceful protests. Are you advocating for violence?

In the 1890s in the south politicians disfranchised poor white men though poll taxes and used violence to prevent Black American men from voting.

Right, and?

Ah now we see your animus.

Unfortunately, the fact remains that within later western culture Imperialism along with notions of racial superiority originated in the thinking of predominantly white men and were often premised on religious texts and/or teachings.

And how is that really different from what the Iroquois did to the Huron Nation, or the Sioux did to the Cherokee in PRACTICE - apart from motive. Just humans being human.

Your early studies do not seem to have left a lasting impression. You are confusing culture and evolution.

Nonsense, it is all evolutionary - evolution created us to have these cultures, to behave as we do, just as with the higher primates.

That was not my point.

Then what was.

If everything we think do or say is not driven by genetics what else is there?