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  • [QUOTE=Starlight;742193]It's statements like this that confuse people. If you assert that the curve is (solely) determined by the virus, you're implying it's not determined by other things, e.g. government policy around social distancing. [/quote sti]

    Your still not reading my posts completely, and yes the world is panicing and confused beyond belief. I said, "the pattern of the curve is determined by the virus."

    Perhaps what you mean is something more along the lines of "this virus seems to have a distinctive bell-shaped curve, whose height can be changed through different government policies (e.g. around social distancing)".
    The coronavirus has a distinctive curve

    I think your symmetry assumption is fundamentally wrong though.

    Initially in most countries, in the absence of social distancing measures, etc, the virus will have had a certain R0, so those countries will see an exponential curve rising at that rate. After there is a serious policy intervention - lockdown / social-distancing etc, there is essentially a new R0' relating to the virus spread (e.g. in NZ this was <0.5), and so you get a new exponential curve beginning around then whose growth or decay relate relates to this new R0'. Your assumption that the resultant graph will be symmetrical, assumes that the new R0' will happen to be the inverse of the original R0. There is no particular likelihood of this being true. The new R0' will be almost totally dependent on the rules implemented and level of compliance with them, so could range from almost zero to as high as the original R0. So only by chance would the two phases of the curve be symmetrical with each other.

    Typical R0 values seem to be 1-5 (most often 2-3) for the initial outbreak, and then around 0.3-2.0 for the post-intervention R0'. If the initial R0 happens to be 2.0 and the R0' happens to be 0.5, you'll get a lovely symmetric bell curve since those are inverses. But if not, not. So there can be symmetry by chance, but it's not particularly likely.
    No chance involved here. There is no such thing as a 'lovely symmetric curve. Still very awkward disjoint communication on your part.

    Comment


    • [QUOTE=Starlight;742193]It's statements like this that confuse people. If you assert that the curve is (solely) determined by the virus, you're implying it's not determined by other things, e.g. government policy around social distancing. [/quote sti]

      Your still not reading my posts completely, and yes the world is panicing and confused beyond belief. I said, "the pattern of the curve is determined by the virus."

      Perhaps what you mean is something more along the lines of "this virus seems to have a distinctive bell-shaped curve, whose height can be changed through different government policies (e.g. around social distancing)".
      The coronavirus has a distinctive curve, and the pattern of the curve is a predictable curve.

      I think your symmetry assumption is fundamentally wrong though.

      Initially in most countries, in the absence of social distancing measures, etc, the virus will have had a certain R0, so those countries will see an exponential curve rising at that rate. After there is a serious policy intervention - lockdown / social-distancing etc, there is essentially a new R0' relating to the virus spread (e.g. in NZ this was <0.5), and so you get a new exponential curve beginning around then whose growth or decay relate relates to this new R0'. Your assumption that the resultant graph will be symmetrical, assumes that the new R0' will happen to be the inverse of the original R0. There is no particular likelihood of this being true. The new R0' will be almost totally dependent on the rules implemented and level of compliance with them, so could range from almost zero to as high as the original R0. So only by chance would the two phases of the curve be symmetrical with each other.

      Typical R0 values seem to be 1-5 (most often 2-3) for the initial outbreak, and then around 0.3-2.0 for the post-intervention R0'. If the initial R0 happens to be 2.0 and the R0' happens to be 0.5, you'll get a lovely symmetric bell curve since those are inverses. But if not, not. So there can be symmetry by chance, but it's not particularly likely.
      No chance involved here. There is no such thing as a 'lovely symmetric curve'. Still very awkward disjoint communication on your part.
      Last edited by shunyadragon; 05-28-2020, 06:24 AM.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Starlight View Post
        It's statements like this that confuse people. If you assert that the curve is (solely) determined by the virus, you're implying it's not determined by other things, e.g. government policy around social distancing.

        Perhaps what you mean is something more along the lines of "this virus seems to have a distinctive bell-shaped curve, whose height can be changed through different government policies (e.g. around social distancing)".

        I think your symmetry assumption is fundamentally wrong though. Initially in most countries, in the absence of social distancing measures, etc, the virus will have had a certain R0, so those countries will see an exponential curve rising at that rate. After there is a serious policy intervention - lockdown / social-distancing etc, there is essentially a new R0' relating to the virus spread (e.g. in NZ this was <0.5), and so you get a new exponential curve beginning around then whose growth or decay relate relates to this new R0'. Your assumption that the resultant graph will be symmetrical, assumes that the new R0' will happen to be the inverse of the original R0. There is no particular likelihood of this being true. The new R0' will be almost totally dependent on the rules implemented and level of compliance with them, so could range from almost zero to as high as the original R0. So only by chance would the two phases of the curve be symmetrical with each other.

        Typical R0 values seem to be 1-5 (most often 2-3) for the initial outbreak, and then around 0.3-2.0 for the post-intervention R0'. If the initial R0 happens to be 2.0 and the R0' happens to be 0.5, you'll get a lovely symmetric bell curve since those are inverses. But if not, not. So there can be symmetry by chance, but it's not particularly likely.
        This reference demonstrates the consistency and predictability of the COVID-19 cases and fatality curve history, and reflecting the different size and geographic nature of the countries: https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus

        Comment


        • Originally posted by MaxVel View Post
          Ummm... world gone crazy... solid posts from Starlight AND Shunya... Wha....?
          Starlight and I disagree on many things. No problem.

          Comment


          • WHO guidance: Healthy people should wear masks only when 'taking care of' coronavirus patients

            https://www.foxnews.com/world/who-gu...virus-patients
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • Originally posted by seer View Post
              WHO guidance: Healthy people should wear masks only when 'taking care of' coronavirus patients

              https://www.foxnews.com/world/who-gu...virus-patients
              And it is still on their page.

              https://www.who.int/emergencies/dise...w-to-use-masks
              That's what
              - She

              Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
              - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

              I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
              - Stephen R. Donaldson

              Comment


              • Originally posted by seer View Post
                WHO guidance: Healthy people should wear masks only when 'taking care of' coronavirus patients

                https://www.foxnews.com/world/who-gu...virus-patients

                sounds like they either disagree with the CDC or they have not had the time or funding to replace the video.
                My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                Comment


                • To reiterate: The US active daily cases is flat since reopening. That is, wherease we were in a slow decline, that decline appears to have stopped. And we did not even get to 1/2 peak growth. We are averaging 20,000 new cases/day. 1/2 would have been around 15,000 new cases/day.

                  I will be monitoring this closely for the next two weeks. We are 4 days out from the end of the Memorial day weekend. We should start to see rises in the active daily cases over the next 3 to 5 days and continuing if the activities and relaxed restrictions accompanying memorial day have pushed us back into positive growth territory.

                  Daily Cases US 05292020.jpg
                  My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                  If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                  This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                  Comment


                  • Something I've seen going around recently is claims that Coronavirus cases are being undercounting by instead attributing deaths merely to pneumonia e.g. here.


                    The likely higher numbers are corroborated by data from the website statista.com, which shows that from February to May 16, the number of COVID-19 deaths was 73,639, and that the number of pneumonia deaths was 89,555. Subtracting the seasonal average for pneumonia leaves 32,555 fatalities unaccounted for.


                    At minimum this should counterbalance any nonsensical claims of COVID45 *overcounting*.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by little_monkey View Post
                      As a historical reference, the second wave during the Spanish flu was more deadly than the first wave. Will history repeat itself?
                      I am sure the left is crossing their fingers and hoping so. Anything to blame Trump for something else.

                      Comment


                      • I will volunteer to go back in time if need be. Any messages you want me to bring you form the future?

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          I will volunteer to go back in time if need be. Any messages you want me to bring you form the future?
                          Invest in sanitizer and toilet paper.

                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                            Invest in sanitizer and toilet paper.
                            Neither have anything to do with the reducing the impact of the pandemic. Without a vaccine all we have is masks and self-distancing.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                              To reiterate: The US active daily cases is flat since reopening. That is, wherease we were in a slow decline, that decline appears to have stopped. And we did not even get to 1/2 peak growth. We are averaging 20,000 new cases/day. 1/2 would have been around 15,000 new cases/day.

                              I will be monitoring this closely for the next two weeks. We are 4 days out from the end of the Memorial day weekend. We should start to see rises in the active daily cases over the next 3 to 5 days and continuing if the activities and relaxed restrictions accompanying memorial day have pushed us back into positive growth territory.

                              [ATTACH=CONFIG]45133[/ATTACH]
                              The curve is interesting, and reflects my predictions, including a rise in the cases in June, when compared to the natural curve of those larger countries infected early. The natural cure of the USA is more messy than other countries, but follows the same pattern/ I do not consider the testing results of infected cases to be real accurate, but OK as a statisitical sampling that show a consistent pattern. The problem remains the large numbers of cases not tested, and those symptomatic and weakly infected. In another post I will describe the research that shows more than one variety of the coronavirus arrived in the USA from different sources, some more virulent than others. It is being confirmed that up to 80% of those infected do not show significant symptoms China provided the first estimate for the cases in Wuhan.

                              There are also questions concerning the reliability of testing and I will cite a reference concerning this later.

                              Source: https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/27/over-80percent-of-coronavirus-patients-on-cruise-ship-had-no-symptoms-study-says.html



                              HEALTH AND SCIENCE
                              More than 80% of coronavirus patients on a cruise ship did not have any symptoms, new study says

                              © Copyright Original Source

                              Comment


                              • Problems of using counts of cases alone as a measure of course of the infection rate of the COVID-19 are reflected in the inconsistent poorly planned testing programs. The more comprehensive of different sources and types of data provided at: https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus. The cite is interactive and you can add countries to the difeerent graphs.

                                Source: https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/05/cdc-and-states-are-misreporting-covid-19-test-data-pennsylvania-georgia-texas/611935/



                                The absence of clear national guidelines has led to widespread confusion about how testing data should be reported.

                                © Copyright Original Source



                                Many states make the mistake that low infection rates outside large cities are safe to open, but these areas may simply have a low exposure rate to the population.

                                Comment

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