Impeachment: Republican Senators leaving Senate Chamber During Impeachment Trial

[JimL]

You're suggesting that the president has the power to refuse a legal request from Congress, and there's nothing they can do about it, not even go to court. Is that really what you believe?

No, I didn't suggest that they couldn't go to court, I suggested that for Congress to have to fight every supoena in court would render their Constitutional requirement to hold a corrupt president to account moot. Using executive privilege in order to cover up a crime is a crime in itself, it's illegal. But, if the president can, without claiming executive privilege, just refuse to turn over evidence, which is what this president is trying to get away with, then Congress would simply lose the power invested in them to impeach. Thus, the wannabe dictator, becomes a dictator.

[rogue06]

Yes because no president, before Trump, ever stonewalled Congress!

Executive privilege is just something that Trump fabricated out of thin air

[rogue06]

This is mere conjecture on your part. The subpoenas were dropped because (as Trump presumably planned) they would not be ruled upon by the courts until well after the November elections when they would effectively be irrelevant.

As the judge in Kupperman's case made repeatedly clear he was planning on expediting the case so that it would take a couple of months at best.

And if worrying about delays are an issue then why are the Democrats insisting on the Senate issuing subpoenas? Wouldn't they face the same delays making them as you say "effectively ... irrelevant" as well? In fact it'll take longer because it'll be a couple months after the House would have issued them thanks in part to Pelosi squatting on them for a month.

[rogue06]

No, I didn't suggest that they couldn't go to court, I suggested that for Congress to have to fight every supoena in court would render their Constitutional requirement to hold a corrupt president to account moot.

That is pretty much what every Congress has faced when all the other president's claimed executive privilege.

[Tassman]

As the judge in Kupperman's case made repeatedly clear he was planning on expediting the case so that it would take a couple of months at best.

As Schiff said: "We're not going to delay our work." "That would merely allow these witnesses and the White House to succeed with their goal which is to delay, deny, obstruct." Why do they feel the need to obstruct Trump's alibis to the accusations of extortion? Presumably because Trump would not be exonerated by such witnesses - as increasingly seems to be the case. Bolton's manuscript being but the latest example.

[Watermelon]

That is pretty much what every Congress has faced when all the other president's claimed executive privilege.

[Watermelon]

[Watermelon]

As the judge in Kupperman's case made repeatedly clear he was planning on expediting the case so that it would take a couple of months at best.

And if worrying about delays are an issue then why are the Democrats insisting on the Senate issuing subpoenas? Wouldn't they face the same delays making them as you say "effectively ... irrelevant" as well? In fact it'll take longer because it'll be a couple months after the House would have issued them thanks in part to Pelosi squatting on them for a month.

[Mountain Man]

No, I didn't suggest that they couldn't go to court, I suggested that for Congress to have to fight every supoena in court would render their Constitutional requirement to hold a corrupt president to account moot. Using executive privilege in order to cover up a crime is a crime in itself, it's illegal. But, if the president can, without claiming executive privilege, just refuse to turn over evidence, which is what this president is trying to get away with, then Congress would simply lose the power invested in them to impeach. Thus, the wannabe dictator, becomes a dictator.

Okay... so why didn't the House fight it in court? Because at this point, without a judicial ruling, there's nothing that says the President actually did anything wrong in this respect.

[JimL]

That is pretty much what every Congress has faced when all the other president's claimed executive privilege.

This president didn't claim executive privilege! And there is a nefarious reason for his not doing so. Discovery! He would then have to give reason for the claim. So he didn't claim executive privilege, he just refused to allow any testimony or turn over any subpoenaed documents, you know, like a dictator would do.

[JimL]

Okay... so why didn't the House fight it in court? Because at this point, without a judicial ruling, there's nothing that says the President actually did anything wrong in this respect.

Because they didn't fall for the presidents trap to delay, delay, delay, until the election was over and because they got enough patriotic Americans to defy the Presidents orders and testify, as well as enough documentary evidence to indict and that is all that is required for the House to impeach, to bring the case to trial. That puts the onus on the Senate to put on a fair trial, to demand relevant witnesses and other evidence previously blocked.

[lilpixieofterror]

Humm, I thought that Clinton told his people not to testify and Nixon fought to not release his tapes. Is that not true?

[lilpixieofterror]

Because they didn't fall for the presidents trap to delay, delay, delay, until the election was over and because they got enough patriotic Americans to defy the Presidents orders and testify, as well as enough documentary evidence to indict and that is all that is required for the House to impeach, to bring the case to trial. That puts the onus on the Senate to put on a fair trial, to demand relevant witnesses and other evidence previously blocked.

[Mountain Man]

Because they didn't fall for the presidents trap to delay, delay, delay, until the election was over...

So instead they voted to impeach and then "delayed, delayed, delayed" sending it to the Senate until the Senate threatened to dismiss the charges if the articles weren't delivered in a timely manner.

But you missed the biggest point here: without a judicial ruling in the House's favor, there is nothing to say that what the President did is actually wrong.

[Watermelon]

Humm, I thought that Clinton told his people not to testify and Nixon fought to not release his tapes. Is that not true?

They did do that but there was no impeachment challenge taken to court. I believe Clinton tried to influence witness testimony by asking them to lie for him. Nixon claimed executive privilege of the tapes in a criminal proceeding not an impeachment proceeding. Nixon argued that executive privilege is superior to everything except impeachment proceedings.