Confederate flags again

[Sparko]

You make a good point. But could the Dukes of Hazards been the ones who hijacked the true meaning?

At each era in the flags existence, how many actually thought that the true meaning and heritage was being hijacked when appropriated by racists?

The examples posted by rogue are the outliers, extreme exceptions, such as H K Edgerton. Not sure if anyone commented on the statement of Edgerton.

No the Dukes of Hazzard didn't hijack the meaning. I grew up mostly in the south in the 1960s. I don't recall anyone having a problem with the confederate flag until recently. And most people in the south still don't.

[JimL]

No the Dukes of Hazzard didn't hijack the meaning. I grew up mostly in the south in the 1960s. I don't recall anyone having a problem with the confederate flag until recently. And most people in the south still don't.

You're not black either.

[seer]

You're not black either.

Neither are you, so don't speak for them...

[Sparko]

You're not black either.

How would you know?

And as rogue pointed out, and I can confirm, blacks in the south don't necessarily think of the rebel flag as racist. At least not until recently and mostly in urban areas.

[oxmixmudd]

Rogue showed you that not all blacks are offended by that flag. You choose to just ignore any evidence that does not support your preconceptions, much like JimL does.

The flag has only recently been associated with racism, because liberals have decided it is so [much like they are doing with the Betsy Ross flag now]. But I remember back in the 1970s and 80s it wasn't. Case in point: the TV show "The Dukes of Hazzard" where they had a car named the General Lee and it had a confederate flag on it and nobody accused the TV show of promoting racism. And this show was put out by liberal Hollywood!

The confederate flag was simply a symbol of Dixie (the south)

The flag has only recently been promoted as NOT having racist connotations. Up to the 60's is carried both, but in the middle of the south where racism was rampant and normal and just part of everyday life, the flag's racism connotation would not have been its primary characteristic. Especially in the white south, they also, even mostly, saw it as a symbol of their pride and identity. But because racism was just an integral part of the culture, the flag was a symbol of that entire culture, including its racist elements. Once society as a whole began its active move away from the acceptance of racism, the racist south that the flag is a symbol of by being a symbol of the south as a whole became its dominant characteristic outside the south itself. It is no longer a symbol of the whole of modern southern culture, because in some significant part the south has moved away and is moving away from its overt racist past. But the flag still stands - especially outside the south and amongst most blacks in the south - for the WHOLE of that old southern culture, which was and is characterized by that heavily racist element.

IOW, the confederate flag has not changed its meaning while the south as a whole has. It still carries with it all that was the racist south. Such is the nature of symbols. And as such it is often used by those still holding onto that racists component of their southern heritage - more so that by those that do not - further cementing it's place as a symbol of racism.

[shunyadragon]

No the Dukes of Hazzard didn't hijack the meaning. I grew up mostly in the south in the 1960s. I don't recall anyone having a problem with the confederate flag until recently. And most people in the south still don't.

Naive use of the Confederate flag as a symbol of rebellion does not justify the use of the flag as a legitimate representative of the heritage of the South.

[Sparko]

Naive use of the Confederate flag as a symbol of rebellion does not justify the use of the flag as a legitimate representative of the heritage of the South.

That's how it's been used for decades Shuny.

[rogue06]

I believe I gave a more detailed representation of Maryland. I am familiar with Bowie, and racism became hostile and was dominant particularly when integration was implemented in Maryland.

Source: https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB981587344316142158

BOWIE, Md. -- When Jason Fenwick, a black lawyer, woke up one Saturday morning last summer to find "KKK" spray-painted in red foot-high letters on a neighbor's garage, his first reaction was: Not here.

"You hear about it at family events -- how it happened to my parents, to my grandparents, to my great grandparents," says Mr. Fenwick, who is 33 years old and lives in a $350,000 home. "But then you see it right across from your house. I was stunned."

It couldn't happen here in Bowie, Mr. Fenwick reasoned, because he and his black neighbors aren't pioneers. Well-to-do blacks have been moving in significant numbers into this prosperous bedroom community near Washington, D.C., for five years. Today, they make up about 30% of the population of the city and surrounding subdivisions.

For decades, blacks have been migrating to the suburbs of such cities as Washington, Atlanta, New York and Chicago. The white anxiety and prejudice often stirred by these arrivals have typically reflected fear of increased crime, lower school standards and depressed home prices.

But Bowie residents are facing an unusual and, for many on both sides of the race line, unsettling role-reversal: Tidy, middle-class white neighborhoods are being encircled by predominantly black subdivisions with larger lots, grander homes and a growing number of black families making more than $100,000 a year.

Many of the blacks moving to Bowie belong to two-career couples with college and graduate degrees. Bowie's median household income, which was about $60,000 in 1990, before a lot of blacks began buying homes, now exceeds $70,000, according to an estimate by city officials.

Bowie's leafy streets have become the unlikely scene of growing racial conflict. In October, several hundred whites rallied in front of City Hall, protesting school budget cuts. Some protesters demanded that this city of 50,000 secede from surrounding Prince George's County, which is predominantly black, and join neighboring Anne Arundel County, which is mostly white. Racial epithets have been scrawled on the homes of several upper-middle-income black families. And in an incident three years ago, crosses were set aflame on the front lawn of the local high school.

© Copyright Original Source

My father was transferred about 3 or 4 months after they started the forced bussing. It was so screwed up that it made the Keystone Cops look like a smooth operation.

There were 3 Junior Highs back then. One had two black students, the other had one whereas we were roughly 10% black. When all was said and done the other two schools were 10% black whereas we became a third black -- but in order to do so nearly every black that had attended the school were bussed off to a different mostly black school some 40 minutes away.

Needless to say the parents of those black students were probably the most vocal opposition.

[oxmixmudd]

That's how it's been used for decades Shuny.

unfortunately, the larger meaning of a symbol is the one it carries, regardless of how an individual may see it. For example, I can't just decide to put a swastica bearing flag on my flagpole at home just because I think it looks pretty. How I see it will not keep it from meaning very horrible things to everyone that looks upon it. It is, and likely will remain, a symbol of hatred and intolerance of the highest degree.

And most people, understanding what it stands for, unless they identify with what it stands for, would not want to be a bearer of that standard just because they mistakenly thought it meant something else.

So the question then is how universal, how strong is the association of that flag with the racist element of the south's past. And the answer to that is 'very strong' - too strong for it to be part of the official banner of an organization with the general public as its audience, or for it to be flown over an official state building or organization.

[Teallaura]

I believe I gave a more detailed representation of Maryland. I am familiar with Bowie, and racism became hostile and was dominant particularly when integration was implemented in Maryland.

Source: https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB981587344316142158

BOWIE, Md. -- When Jason Fenwick, a black lawyer, woke up one Saturday morning last summer to find "KKK" spray-painted in red foot-high letters on a neighbor's garage, his first reaction was: Not here.

"You hear about it at family events -- how it happened to my parents, to my grandparents, to my great grandparents," says Mr. Fenwick, who is 33 years old and lives in a $350,000 home. "But then you see it right across from your house. I was stunned."

It couldn't happen here in Bowie, Mr. Fenwick reasoned, because he and his black neighbors aren't pioneers. Well-to-do blacks have been moving in significant numbers into this prosperous bedroom community near Washington, D.C., for five years. Today, they make up about 30% of the population of the city and surrounding subdivisions.

For decades, blacks have been migrating to the suburbs of such cities as Washington, Atlanta, New York and Chicago. The white anxiety and prejudice often stirred by these arrivals have typically reflected fear of increased crime, lower school standards and depressed home prices.

But Bowie residents are facing an unusual and, for many on both sides of the race line, unsettling role-reversal: Tidy, middle-class white neighborhoods are being encircled by predominantly black subdivisions with larger lots, grander homes and a growing number of black families making more than $100,000 a year.

Many of the blacks moving to Bowie belong to two-career couples with college and graduate degrees. Bowie's median household income, which was about $60,000 in 1990, before a lot of blacks began buying homes, now exceeds $70,000, according to an estimate by city officials.

Bowie's leafy streets have become the unlikely scene of growing racial conflict. In October, several hundred whites rallied in front of City Hall, protesting school budget cuts. Some protesters demanded that this city of 50,000 secede from surrounding Prince George's County, which is predominantly black, and join neighboring Anne Arundel County, which is mostly white. Racial epithets have been scrawled on the homes of several upper-middle-income black families. And in an incident three years ago, crosses were set aflame on the front lawn of the local high school.

© Copyright Original Source

And this is what gets you in trouble - this was a 2001 incident with indications of it being a hoax (but points for using WSJ). Nov 2019 the same town elects its first black mayor.

[Teallaura]

My father was transferred about 3 or 4 months after they started the forced bussing. It was so screwed up that it made the Keystone Cops look like a smooth operation.

There were 3 Junior Highs back then. One had two black students, the other had one whereas we were roughly 10% black. When all was said and done the other two schools were 10% black whereas we became a third black -- but in order to do so nearly every black that had attended the school were bussed off to a different mostly black school some 40 minutes away.

Needless to say the parents of those black students were probably the most vocal opposition.

City folks... I had to be at the stop by 7 and I wasn't even the first on the route.

[JimL]

How would you know?

I think it's a safe assumption.

And as rogue pointed out, and I can confirm, blacks in the south don't necessarily think of the rebel flag as racist. At least not until recently and mostly in urban areas.

What, a couple of black people told you that?

[simplicio]

How would you know?

And as rogue pointed out, and I can confirm, blacks in the south don't necessarily think of the rebel flag as racist. At least not until recently and mostly in urban areas.

I suppose you learned that about bla k attitudes from the proverbial black friend?

https://world.wng.org/2015/06/what_t...ican_americans

A symbol of racial terrorism or American values?

A symbol of resistance to civil rights or a symbol of the Christian view of human rights and dignity?

A symbol of lynching, JimCrow and suffering or Christian values

[Sparko]

I think it's a safe assumption.

What, a couple of black people told you that?

I have lived in the south most of my life Jim.

[JimL]

I have lived in the south most of my life Jim.

And?