Confederate flags again

[Teallaura]

I am not a Yankee! I am from Maryland that considers it an occupied state by Northern troops with a Confederate statue pointing South, and segregation ruled, and I have always lived in the South whenever I lived in the USA. I do not equate the South with the Confederate flag nor slavery and racism. Unfortunately it is a fact of history that the Confederate flag is a symbol of secession, slavery and racism, and the only ones who cling to the flag support its heritage in one way or another,

Okay I won't call you a yankee again.

[Teallaura]

I separated out the last sentence, because that is where I think the rub is. The ones who argue that slavery was a secondary issue in antebellum south are pretty much neoconfederates.

Why do you argue that the flag is associated with racism and repression in the list civil war period? Did many see the values of white supremacy inconsistent with the flag, the heritage?

Yeah, haters gotta hate.

Why ask when you really want to accuse?

[shunyadragon]

Historically speaking you might be right but I spent 7½ years in Maryland just outside of D.C. Most everyone there considered themselves yankees and definitely not part of the South.

Due to Northern migration for government the population has changed around Washington, and greatly impacted Virginia and now Virginia has become a borderline Democratic state.. I grew up in the late 1940's through 60's in the Rockville/ Gaithersburg rural area on a farm, and yes than Maryland was still a Southern state. There was a line following Route 1 from Washington to Baltimore where South of that line the KKK was still active then, and remains hardline Conservative and white. The Eastern shore of Maryland remains solid extreme Conservative Republican turf.

The Confederate statue pointing south remains in Rockville Md.

[oxmixmudd]

I separated out the last sentence, because that is where I think the rub is. The ones who argue that slavery was a secondary issue in antebellum south are pretty much neoconfederates.

Why do you argue that the flag is associated with racism and repression in the list civil war period? Did many see the values of white supremacy inconsistent with the flag, the heritage?

I dont really understand your question.

[Teallaura]

Due to Northern migration for government the population has changed around Washington, and greatly impacted Virginia and now Virginia has become a borderline Democratic state.. I grew up in the late 1940's through 60's in the Rockville/ Gaithersburg rural area on a farm, and yes than Maryland was still a Southern state. There was a line following Route 1 from Washington to Baltimore where South of that line the KKK was still active then, and remains hardline Conservative and white. The Eastern shore of Maryland remains solid extreme Conservative Republican turf.

The Confederate statue pointing south remains in Rockville Md.

Virginia seems to be getting less borderline

[simplicio]

I dont really understand your question.

The question refers to how those who proudly carried that flag thought about the values it represented.

I see several distinct periods in the way the flag was viewed or used. The 1860s, the war and its immediate aftermath, the 1870s (reconstruction and redemption), 1890s - WWI (rollback of the reconstruction amendments), post WWII to 60s, post civil rights era. Each period has subtle shift in how the flag was used.

At each period many, the masses, saw white supremacy as entirely consistent with the values of that flag, as well as consistent with southern heritage. Pushback did not start with the excesses of the fifties and sixties with the concurrent acceptance of civil rights, universal suffrage, and achieving the franchise.

Overlay those periods with the slow evolution of strategies and tactics of civil rights reformers, and a fuller picture emerges. For example, Plessy was an early attempt at achieving full rights, and was rejected; it was concurrent with the establishment of Jim Crow and the nadir of race relations.

The historical views by contemporaries has been pretty much absent from this discussion.

[rogue06]

Due to Northern migration for government the population has changed around Washington, and greatly impacted Virginia and now Virginia has become a borderline Democratic state.. I grew up in the late 1940's through 60's in the Rockville/ Gaithersburg rural area on a farm, and yes than Maryland was still a Southern state. There was a line following Route 1 from Washington to Baltimore where South of that line the KKK was still active then, and remains hardline Conservative and white. The Eastern shore of Maryland remains solid extreme Conservative Republican turf.

The Confederate statue pointing south remains in Rockville Md.

I was in Bowie in the 1960s early 70s. The kids born there never for a moment considered themselves to be Southerners who they typically viewed as "rednecks."

[oxmixmudd]

The question refers to how those who proudly carried that flag thought about the values it represented.

I see several distinct periods in the way the flag was viewed or used. The 1860s, the war and its immediate aftermath, the 1870s (reconstruction and redemption), 1890s - WWI (rollback of the reconstruction amendments), post WWII to 60s, post civil rights era. Each period has subtle shift in how the flag was used.

At each period many, the masses, saw white supremacy as entirely consistent with the values of that flag, as well as consistent with southern heritage. Pushback did not start with the excesses of the fifties and sixties with the concurrent acceptance of civil rights, universal suffrage, and achieving the franchise.

Overlay those periods with the slow evolution of strategies and tactics of civil rights reformers, and a fuller picture emerges. For example, Plessy was an early attempt at achieving full rights, and was rejected; it was concurrent with the establishment of Jim Crow and the nadir of race relations.

The historical views by contemporaries has been pretty much absent from this discussion.

Interesting, but I'm not the fellow to be asking for detailed opinions on the historical view of that flag in various cultures across those same periods.

Not my area of study.

[simplicio]

Interesting, but I'm not the fellow to be asking for detailed opinions on the historical view of that flag in various cultures across those same periods.

Not my area of study.

I would say that it is not an area many are familiar with, which is why I brought it up.

[shunyadragon]

I was in Bowie in the 1960s early 70s. The kids born there never for a moment considered themselves to be Southerners who they typically viewed as "rednecks."

I believe I gave a more detailed representation of Maryland. I am familiar with Bowie, and racism became hostile and was dominant particularly when integration was implemented in Maryland.

Source: https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB981587344316142158

BOWIE, Md. -- When Jason Fenwick, a black lawyer, woke up one Saturday morning last summer to find "KKK" spray-painted in red foot-high letters on a neighbor's garage, his first reaction was: Not here.

"You hear about it at family events -- how it happened to my parents, to my grandparents, to my great grandparents," says Mr. Fenwick, who is 33 years old and lives in a $350,000 home. "But then you see it right across from your house. I was stunned."

It couldn't happen here in Bowie, Mr. Fenwick reasoned, because he and his black neighbors aren't pioneers. Well-to-do blacks have been moving in significant numbers into this prosperous bedroom community near Washington, D.C., for five years. Today, they make up about 30% of the population of the city and surrounding subdivisions.

For decades, blacks have been migrating to the suburbs of such cities as Washington, Atlanta, New York and Chicago. The white anxiety and prejudice often stirred by these arrivals have typically reflected fear of increased crime, lower school standards and depressed home prices.

But Bowie residents are facing an unusual and, for many on both sides of the race line, unsettling role-reversal: Tidy, middle-class white neighborhoods are being encircled by predominantly black subdivisions with larger lots, grander homes and a growing number of black families making more than $100,000 a year.

Many of the blacks moving to Bowie belong to two-career couples with college and graduate degrees. Bowie's median household income, which was about $60,000 in 1990, before a lot of blacks began buying homes, now exceeds $70,000, according to an estimate by city officials.

Bowie's leafy streets have become the unlikely scene of growing racial conflict. In October, several hundred whites rallied in front of City Hall, protesting school budget cuts. Some protesters demanded that this city of 50,000 secede from surrounding Prince George's County, which is predominantly black, and join neighboring Anne Arundel County, which is mostly white. Racial epithets have been scrawled on the homes of several upper-middle-income black families. And in an incident three years ago, crosses were set aflame on the front lawn of the local high school.

© Copyright Original Source

[Sparko]

And exactly why should we ask ignorant people that question?

Because we are entertained by your answers, JimL.

[seer]

I live in New England and I can't tell you how many Confederate flags I see on pick up trucks, in one form or another. Mostly young blue collar guys. It seems to have more of a rebellious connotation rather than a race thing.

[simplicio]

Because we are entertained by your answers, JimL.

Yes, I agree, someone such as JimL is entertaining. imagine having no understanding (or acting as if he does not understand) why black Americans find that symbol offensive. Almost like finding Jews who are not offended by a swastika on a flag.

But did Jim do that?

I started the thread about Obama being unwilling to accurately label Islamic terrorism. Here we have posters tripping over themselves, but on the topic of racism.

[Sparko]

Yes, I agree, someone such as JimL is entertaining. imagine having no understanding (or acting as if he does not understand) why black Americans find that symbol offensive. Almost like finding Jews who are not offended by a swastika on a flag.

But did Jim do that?

I started the thread about Obama being unwilling to accurately label Islamic terrorism. Here we have posters tripping over themselves, but on the topic of racism.

Rogue showed you that not all blacks are offended by that flag. You choose to just ignore any evidence that does not support your preconceptions, much like JimL does.

The flag has only recently been associated with racism, because liberals have decided it is so [much like they are doing with the Betsy Ross flag now]. But I remember back in the 1970s and 80s it wasn't. Case in point: the TV show "The Dukes of Hazzard" where they had a car named the General Lee and it had a confederate flag on it and nobody accused the TV show of promoting racism. And this show was put out by liberal Hollywood!

The confederate flag was simply a symbol of Dixie (the south)

[simplicio]

Rogue showed you that not all blacks are offended by that flag. You choose to just ignore any evidence that does not support your preconceptions, much like JimL does.

The flag has only recently been associated with racism, because liberals have decided it is so [much like they are doing with the Betsy Ross flag now]. But I remember back in the 1970s and 80s it wasn't. Case in point: the TV show "The Dukes of Hazzard" where they had a car named the General Lee and it had a confederate flag on it and nobody accused the TV show of promoting racism. And this show was put out by liberal Hollywood!

The confederate flag was simply a symbol of Dixie (the south)

You make a good point. But could the Dukes of Hazards been the ones who hijacked the true meaning?

At each era in the flags existence, how many actually thought that the true meaning and heritage was being hijacked when appropriated by racists?

The examples posted by rogue are the outliers, extreme exceptions, such as H K Edgerton. Not sure if anyone commented on the statement of Edgerton.