Confederate flags again

[Sparko]

The south lost their rebellion over slavery and you should be proud of the American flag that crushed the rebellion not the flag that symbolizes it. Unless of course you are proud of what the confederate flag was created for, symbolizes.

Even accepting that over simplification, the flag never represented slavery or racism. And it was never even suggested that anyone using it was racist until a few years ago. Why should a few loud mouthed liberals get to change the meaning of a flag? They are attempting to do the same with the USA's first flag, the Betsy Ross flag. Heck they even tried to claim the "OK" gesture was racist! And MILK!!

[JimL]

Even accepting that over simplification, the flag never represented slavery or racism. And it was never even suggested that anyone using it was racist until a few years ago. Why should a few loud mouthed liberals get to change the meaning of a flag? They are attempting to do the same with the USA's first flag, the Betsy Ross flag. Heck they even tried to claim the "OK" gesture was racist! And MILK!!

Yes, the confederate flag did represent the south rebellion against the U.S. over the issue of slavery. The only ones here trying to change the meaning of the flag are those who are proud of that slavery heritage.

[Sparko]

Yes, the confederate flag did represent the south rebellion against the U.S. over the issue of slavery. The only ones here trying to change the meaning of the flag are those who are proud of that slavery heritage.

Slavery was only part of the reasons the states wanted to secede JimL. Like I said, an oversimplification. And you ignored the rest of my post because you know I was right.

[oxmixmudd]

The confederate flag was never an evil symbol to begin with. It was simply a flag representing the southern states who were trying to secede from the Union. After the war it just became a symbol of southern pride. It wasn't until recently that people decided it was racist. So like you claim with Hitler, the liberals took a cultural symbol and turned it into something evil. They are trying to do the same with the Betsy Ross flag. So like I asked Shuny about the Navajo, should they continue to use the swastika in their culture even though Hitler perverted it? And if so, why should anyone give up using the confederate flag or the Betsy Ross flag as a symbol of our culture just because some liberals want to pervert their meaning?

I've been around 60 years. It has been a symbol of racism since before I was born. I've live all over the us - south to north to west. So how 'recently' are you talking?

[JimL]

I've been around 60 years. It has been a symbol of racism since before I was born. I've live all over the us - south to north to west. So how 'recently' are you talking?

He's projecting. Because he doesn't see it as a symbol of racism and slavery himself, what else he see's in it is anybody's guess, he assumes that those who were enslaved under it don't recognize it for what it represents either.

[JimL]

Slavery was only part of the reasons the states wanted to secede JimL. Like I said, an oversimplification. And you ignored the rest of my post because you know I was right.

No Sparko, continuing the institution of slavery was the one and only reason.

[simplicio]

Yes, the confederate flag did represent the south rebellion against the U.S. over the issue of slavery. The only ones here trying to change the meaning of the flag are those who are proud of that slavery heritage.

I think the stronger argument is made by looking at how it was used after the war ended.

It became very popular in the period approaching the 20th century, a period which coincided with institutionalizing racism and the building of the Lost Cause narrative. The novel The Clansman, then the movie Birth of a Nation, the public speeches at dedications of civil war monuments (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silent_Sam#Dedication is only one example).

The fact is that racism and the place of the white race at the pinnacle of society was seen as the Christian heritage of the south, and the battle flag was one symbol. The flag(s) of the Confederate States of America is seldom seen, rather the flag associated with Robert E Lee takes it place because of its Lost Cause associations in many minds.

[simplicio]

Even accepting that over simplification, the flag never represented slavery or racism. And it was never even suggested that anyone using it was racist until a few years ago. Why should a few loud mouthed liberals get to change the meaning of a flag? They are attempting to do the same with the USA's first flag, the Betsy Ross flag. Heck they even tried to claim the "OK" gesture was racist! And MILK!!

The fact is that many who displayed that flag accepted the idea that it did represent racism. Until a few years ago, many thought racism was a good, a good consistent with Christian values, a good that was institutionalized into the fabric of society which could not be separated out without unraveling American society, whether in the north, the west, or the south.

[Sparko]

He's projecting. Because he doesn't see it as a symbol of racism and slavery himself, what else he see's in it is anybody's guess, he assumes that those who were enslaved under it don't recognize it for what it represents either.

Ever watch the TV show "Dukes of Hazzard?" If this was a racist symbol back in the 70s and 80s why would leftist Hollywood promote it on a TV show?

[Sparko]

No Sparko, continuing the institution of slavery was the one and only reason.

[Sparko]

The fact is that many who displayed that flag accepted the idea that it did represent racism. Until a few years ago, many thought racism was a good, a good consistent with Christian values, a good that was institutionalized into the fabric of society which could not be separated out without unraveling American society, whether in the north, the west, or the south.

No, Christians didn't think racism was "good" a few years ago. Or consistent with Christian values. That is a moronic thing to say.

[oxmixmudd]

No, Christians didn't think racism was "good" a few years ago. Or consistent with Christian values. That is a moronic thing to say.

You cant rewrite history. The southern Baptist church exists because they believed slavery was acceptable.

[simplicio]

No, Christians didn't think racism was "good" a few years ago. Or consistent with Christian values. That is a moronic thing to say.

Are you so sure? What do you think resistance to civil rights and integration was all about?

Segregation was seen as a good, something to hold back the potential anarchy.

[simplicio]

Ever watch the TV show "Dukes of Hazzard?" If this was a racist symbol back in the 70s and 80s why would leftist Hollywood promote it on a TV show?

The Dukes of Hazzard was a product of its time. The men were loveable rogue underdogs battling The Man. And the car almost became a character, with General Lee against Jefferson Davis Hogg. The women were shapely, plucky, and bouncy (Daisy Dukes has entered the language). And there were almost no blacks in that area of the south. It played with stereotypes, from marrying cousins, to moonshining.

History not hate is a modern defense which ignores why blacks view the flag so differently.

The show is a product of Lost Cause romanticism, like Gone with the Wind, Song of the South, or Birth of a Nation. And it was nothing like In the Heat of the Night, which was a drama, not a cartoon type entertainment.

[simplicio]

The Op asked whether the flag was ever disassociated from racism, and the seventies tv show Dukes of Hazzard was given as an example.

The Confederate flag was integrated into some southern states flags at the time of the civil rights controversy, which coincided with the bicentennial of the war. Southern views on the war and its aftermath, Reconstruction, is rather...interesting.

Reconstruction was "more insidious than war and equally evil in consequences, until the prostrate south staggered to her knees assisted by the original Ku Klux Klan and redshirts who redeemed the south and restored her to her own."